Edit: Wow! I did not expect this discussion to be so thought provoking. So many differing yet compelling viewpoints. I’ll take a while to respond to each one of these but thanks for giving this so much thought and time. The one thing that’s certainly a realisation for me is that I need to figure myself out a little more and exactly who I want to be and what I want, before I slip into thinking about what version of me will be more “successful”. This was my first ever serious advice seeking Reddit post and I’m happy for all those who spent some time letting me have a piece of their mind. I definitely feel I have a lot to work on myself, and blaming circumstances, choices and other people is not the way to go.
Disclaimer – I do not support the connotations that I’ve mentioned below which are in double quotes (“”). I think they’re gender conformist, and definitely inappropriate. But these are words/ phrases I’ve been told.
This is something that has been bothering me over a long time. I’m a 26M and all through high school I was unknowingly quite a “trash guy” – emotionally
unavailable, perceived as only interested in sex, flirting with other women while dating one, etc. Started dating a girl in freshman year at Uni and decided to actively change that. Cut 6 years into the future, I became a “softboi” – always loved my girlfriend, would literally do anything to make her
day, got into a lot of “feminine” activities like skincare, gardening, buying flowers. I was madly in love and life was good. About a year later, my girlfriend cheated on me with a “gymrat”, tattoos, hot bod but emotionally unavailable, quirky, weird as
fuck guy. Seemingly nothing wrong with the relationship at all. In fact it was 7 years in and going pretty well (at least in my head). We broke up.
Took a while to gather my confidence but I started going on dates via dating apps recently. Still the same guy I had evolved into at Uni – into fashion, skincare, super nice to everyone, would go a long
way to make your day better (for everyone). Multiple women I’ve met on apps have told me that “the fact that Youre too nice is repulsive” “I’m too gay”
(seriously abhor this stereotypical and homophobic use of the term), “women are biologically attracted to more ‘manly’ men” (in the context meaning the
ones who are not emotionally available, slightly “trash’, etc).
All of this has been very frustrating. I’ve been thinking if all the seemingly progressive changes I brought about at Uni need to be reversed just to have more success on dating apps? I’m very confused. I thought being a nice person is
appreciated. But lately feels like it’s not.
25 comments
All these women are literally telling you why they don’t want to date you and you just dismiss them because you don’t agree with the premise, whether you think these things are morally incorrect doesn’t change the fact that they are true, also there is a difference between nice and good. Nice is acting a certain way to attract someone wanting something in return. Good is doing good things gor the sake of being good and because you like the feeling of being good. Alot of men fall in this trap and are confused, they are being nice because they want a woman to pay back that niceness with attraction. I’m not saying this is applicable to you im just bringing it up in case it does and you don’t understand the difference
There is a difference between being a decent person an a “nice guy”. One can be ethical without being a pushover. Most nice guys end up married to “bad boys'” leftovers. They get a starvation diet of intimacy whereas the “bad boys” got a feast.
>All of this has been very frustrating. I’ve been thinking if all the seemingly progressive changes I brought about at Uni need to be reversed just to have more success on dating apps? I’m very confused. I thought being a nice person is appreciated. But lately feels like it’s not.
You have been indoctrinated by woke feminist ideology in uni. Now that you are back in the REAL WORLD, you are confronte with how women and men really are, what they value, who they are attracted to. Even your ex-girlfriend grew out of liking a feminine doormat-mat after she realized that all the ideology can make her THINK she wants someone like you, but her attraction cannot be manipulated and in the end she gave up wanting to love you for how unmanly you are.
Also drop that fucking niceguy mentality. Of course “being nice” is appreciated. And “manly” does not equal “slightly trash”. I am into skincare, gardening, buying flowers, home decoration, cooking, and have just taken a foot bath with peeling, pedicure while using rosé towels. This does not make me unmanly. Yesterday when i laid with my gf on the bed on the balcony and read her a short story, she had her head on my chest, snuggled up at my side with a blanket on her and she said: i can’t help but love letting myself fall into traditional gender roles in situations like these. I feel so secure on your chest, so protected, cared for. I feel very feminine right now and this fills me with satisfaciton and joy.
Spoiler alert: they all are open to feel like this. Even the most feminist woke gender-role-smashing blue haired activist woman. And they hate themselves for it. Surpress this discrepancy between what they believe to be true and what their lived reality feels like. Until they decide that being unhappy is not worth it and they keep up the facade but in private, they are just as happy about men being manly as any other woman.
Your unmanliness is rooted in your lack of making women feel feminine in your presence. You have become too much like a woman in this regard and therefore you are treated like one with regards to your sexual attractiveness to them.
– Too soft
– Too effeminate
– Niceness seems insincere
– Always “emotionally available” aka potentially nosy and clingy
– Doesn’t have a traditionally masculine physique (I’m assuming based on your description of the “gym rat with tats and a hot bod”)
But your conclusion is you’re too much of a good guy…? And the fact that you brand men who aren’t you that gets girls as “slightly trash” kinda says it all.
Oh also when girls talk about skincare and fashion they don’t usually like dudes who go “omg me too what’s your favorite bra”. Most straight women are by definition attracted to masculinity. Muscular men with tattoos are also capable of being kind people, surprisingly enough.
> Started dating a girl in freshman year at Uni and decided to actively change that.
why?
There is a theme on this sub of people arguing or trying to tackle dating from the point of view of “this is how things/society should be” rather than “this is how things are”. The reality is that most (not all) women are attracted to traditional displays and embodiments of masculinity. A smaller subsection are not. If you have more effeminate qualities then women attracted to more masculine qualities are likely not going to be interested. You can either scream into the void knowing no one cares. You can try to adopt more masculine qualities. Or you can focus on women who like you the way you are.
Yes
Yes. They always make sure their girl cums first.
no, nice guys usually never finish.
For a lot of people, it seems it’s just hard to be a nice guy and still stand up for yourself so people take the easy way out and try to be assholes to put themselves first. Also anyone who’s not compliant with other people’s wishes seems to get called difficult. Rack up enough of those comments, and you’re an asshole.
Sexual attraction has nothing to do with character or virtue.
Dumb guys finishes last, nice guys can be smart and not getting taken advantage of
Yes, agreeable guys don’t attract most women, I know from experience
Your girlfriend cheating on you is more of a reflection of her than it is of you. However, it sounds like you’re having an identity crisis here. Do you genuinely feel comfortable doing what you’re doing? Are you making yourself appear this way as an attempt to attract women? Because people can see when you’re putting on a front. You don’t “become” a “softboi”.
Through this experience, you’re unfortunately seeing how society actually treats men who don’t live up to its expectations of what men are supposed to be, and additionally you have men in this thread driving that point home telling you that you’ve been brainwashed by feminism. And you may as well have been if this is not who you really are. Feminists aren’t obligated to be attracted to men who don’t live up to the ridiculous standards of masculinity, they’re just defending your right to do whatever you feel like without worrying about constantly performing your masculinity. They’re allowed to be attracted to masculine men still, even if they’re non-conforming themselves. You don’t put on this costume and expect everyone to like you because of how you’re presenting yourself. You’re going to get a lot of the opposite, even from women.
So if you’re going to keep this up, you’re going to have to learn how and where to find the women that are actually attracted to someone like you (they will not be the typical cishet woman you see on dating apps). If this isn’t who you are, then you need to go back to being yourself, as “trash” as you might think other people will believe you to be.
Any guy asking the question if nice guys finish last is both a nice guy in the worst way and going to struggle
Everybody is different.
You just have to be you instead of fitting into a mole that you are not. Maybe that’s the reason women aren’t dating you. Because you think you have created an individual women want to date rather than just being yourself. Being “too feminine” is not necessarily a thing. It depends on the woman. But if someone feels you aren’t being your true self or trying too hard to appeal to them, they will like you less.
Look at people like Harry Styles. Sooooo many women would marry that man. But he doesn’t necessarily fit into the box of a typical man. Now look at Chris Evans…typical guy. Very masculine and fits into the mold of what society thinks men should be like. Women would marry this man too.
Timothee Chalamet is a heartthrob and could probably get almost any girl he wants. But he doesn’t fit into the typical “manly man” category either. He’ has like 0 muscles and is skinny and pale.
It comes down to authentically being yourself and then the right woman will like you for you.
I’m bribing this up because I see discussions here about gender roles talking about what women are attracted to or not.
You can absolutely “smash” gender roles if that’s who you truly are. If you aren’t that guy…then you’re not that guy and you won’t come across as genuine. Yes, not every woman is going to be into that. But as a woman myself, the idea that every women is simply biologically wired to prefer manly men isn’t 100% accurate.
You can be a feminist and support women without being a more feminine man or whatever.
I met a man at the bar recently. I was attracted to him. He was not the typical manly man and bisexual. He was more “feminine.” And I was totally into him.
With that being said, there are men who are “too nice.” And with too nice I mean boring or as another comment said too agreeable. Don’t get me wrong…core values need to match up and we have to be somewhat similar (im pro choice so dating someone pro life wouldn’t be for me) but I don’t want someone who says yes to everything I do and say. I want to date an individual with their own thoughts and opinions and feelings. And not someone who constantly tries to appease me/ spends all of their time only focused on me. If I wanted a servant I’d hire one. I want to get to know someone and connect and have different opinions. Spend my life getting to know them. A guy that agrees with everything you say all the time doesn’t do that. It gets boring.
Of course there are also typical masculine things that women want. Like wanting a partner who can provide for them and take care of them. Wanting someone who can maybe be more assertive or extroverted. I’m not saying those things aren’t true. But to say you need to revert back to being a traditional dude rather than just working on WHO YOU ARE (regardless of what women think) would be the wrong advice in my opinion.
Maybe take a break from dating and figure out who you are, how you like to express yourself and what you want to be like. Fuck women and what they want.
It sounds like you’re putting some of your self worth on other people. The fact that these failed dates/ relationships/ what have you aren’t interested in you has absolutely nothing to do with you or who you are- it does, however, say a lot about them and who they are looking for.
Take a closer look at WHY you feel resentment about all these changes “not being good enough.” Further, you mention “success” on dating apps. What does success mean to you? Sounds like emotionally unavailable people leaving you alone IS a success, imo.
Yes they very much do. Though the ones who call themselves one, usually aren’t nice. That being said- it doesn’t take away from the fact that women generally prefer obnoxious Casanova’s. Science says that’s perceived as “confidence”. There’s a fine line between confident and arrogant narcissist, and there’s some evidence women lean more to the arrogant narcissist side of the line
here’s a study that covers this. the short answer: Yes
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-myths-sex/202203/the-sexual-appeal-dark-personalities#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20cluster%20of,Machiavellianism%2C%20psychopathy%2C%20and%20narcissism](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-myths-sex/202203/the-sexual-appeal-dark-personalities#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20cluster%20of,Machiavellianism%2C%20psychopathy%2C%20and%20narcissism).
The vast majority on dating apps are looking for casual flings. They find the emotionally unavailable guys attractive because they’re what they’re looking for. For an actual partner, most women would prefer a kind man.
Get off the apps and try meeting people organically, through hobbies, work etc
Typically self proclaimed “nice guys” aren’t nice
It’s not appreciated. My parents divorced when I was 9 and I became very close to my Mum. I didn’t see much of my Dad and hence didn’t have that male influence that looking back I so desperately needed.
I think the feminine influence of my Mum made me look on girls at school and moving forwards that I needed to be nice. That somehow I needed to suppress my physical urges and ‘nice’ them into bed.
The reality I think is that a lot of women didn’t know how to view me. When all the other guys were trying to get into their knickers, they knew how to deal with them but my friendliness just made them look at me as a bit weird.
Hence my experience with women was a lot less and I put a big chunk of it down to acting too nice and making my intentions confusing to girls/women.
If I’d acted more like a guy, I think I would have had a lot more opportunities.
Brace yourself for endless disappointment.
It doesn’t get any better I’m afraid because women are a strange and incredibly advantaged breed. When you are blessed to receive as much attention as you want for whatever ‘thing’ you expose yourself on (in a club/on Tinder/on Reddit/on Omegle), you can afford to dismiss a guy trying to make a connection with you at any stage in the courtship with all the effort of a bored monarch.
‘Dance for me jester. Okay next!”
You can be confident of who you are and you can be comfortable of your position in life but it makes no difference. Trying to get noticed by women is virtually impossible in the real world or online. There are too many distractions, too many dopamine hits from their latest picture on IG or Facebook, too many vacuous fake role models on TV for a woman to actually notice you.
Put simply, when it comes to dating many women are like moths. Short attention spans and only capable of noticing the brightest light dancing immediately in front of them.
Even now at 50, I still struggle make a connection with anyone. Try to talk to anyone in the real world suggestively and I can feel the cringe but act like my normal self and I feel anonymous and irrelevant. No one cares, no one wants to get to know you and no one takes an interest in you.
Try online where maybe your communication skills might help you and it’s the same. Tinder, Bumble, POF and even Adult Friend Finder and it’s just a constant sea of hope followed by being ignored and passed over.
Trying to win the attention and affection of women is an uphill, pride swallowing, egg shell walking, conversationally one sided, blind luck reliant, precarious interest maintaining slog fest. I’ve sent countless individual specific messages through POF and AFF with literally nothing but some algorithm triggered bots. And on the rare occasion of talking to someone on AFF or Omegle when they see a picture of me – I’m suddenly ghosted.
Even when you think you’ve made a connection and they are saying how much they are enjoying and looking forward to your unique messages, one wrong paragraph or rather a paragraph that they take wrongly and you are ghosted quicker than a horror film.
You just feel disconnected and unwanted and questioning the point of it all. It’s like playing a strategy game and knowing that you can’t win. There’s no point in playing and seeing the end out when the path is set. You might as well just quit and be done with it all. You had your shot, you played your hand and you maintained the false ‘everyone is an individual and deserves an equal chance’ optimism for as long as you could. The world isn’t interested in you and no one thinks you have anything worthwhile to offer.
Ultimately the world of social media, constant likes/validation on IG and Facebook and all manner of dating sites means that you are completely disposable at all stages. Don’t like your picture – swipe right. Say something wrong – block you. Agree to a meet but get cold feet a few days beforehand – ghost you.
There’s no come back on them in the real world because they don’t see you as a real person with thoughts and feelings and a life that was impacted by your efforts to befriend them.
You’re just a provider of useful words and dopamime at that particular moment in their life and if you happen not to fit perfectly within it, you can be thrown in the bin because there is always another anonymous male clutching his deli ticket waiting for his slot.
All you can do is focus on yourself, your enjoyment, your development and your career.
Chasing women is not fair or just. It doesn’t follow any moral code and it doesn’t reward the noble or honorable. Doing the right thing brings you no prizes and being a decent guy doesn’t get you the girl. You just have to stumble through life hoping that someone, somewhere with lower self esteem than you takes an interest in you.
No this came to me over the years as I realised that women find it easier to understand a guy when their motivations are clearer.
And in turn although they’ll gush about being nice, they ultimately do want to be objectified, especially at the beginning, by a guy.
Truth is they don’t finish at all