I live in Ireland and it’s surprising how many Americans I meet that claim Irish ancestry, only for it to come out that they’re of Ulster Scots(or Scots-Irish as we’d say in the US) descent. These are not at all the same ethnic group lol. Scots-Irish people are of lowland Scottish descent and typically protestant, while the native Irish are/were typically Catholic and descend primarily from the indigenous Gaelic culture of the island.
Just wondering how aware you all are of this.
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Never even heard of it.
What is Liz Fraser?
I dont know what the FUCK that shit is
They’re natural enemies, just like English and Scots, Welshman and Scots, Japanese and Scots or Scots and other Scots.
Weird, most Irish descended Americans I know are Catholic. Anyone have like, census data on this one?
And for what it’s worth in the US when we call ourselves “Irish”or “Italian” or “Polish” or whatever, it’s understood as shorthand for “My ancestors who immigrated to the US were from there” rather than “I’m from there”. Seems to rub a lot of Europeans the wrong way when they see that language.
Yes I am
I love your gatekeeping of Irish people as people who are completely and laughably different than people who moved to Ireland 400 years ago…
I’m sure a lot of people just trace their ancestors back to Ireland and call themselves of Irish descent not know they were Ulster Scots.
Some of us do know the difference, some don’t. Also it should be noted that you’re just assuming people are incorrectly identifying as Irish and are Ulster Scots, when in fact a lot of them might be Irish or mixed between, so it is all irrelevant.
Well aware. My paternal family were lowland Scot that moved to Northern Ireland in the 1700s, and to the U.S. in the early 1800s.
Yes, of course many of us are aware of it, particularly those of Irish or Scots-Irish descent. We just don’t care as much, so we may say we are of Protestant Irish descent. (I say “we” generally, I’m not of such descent myself.)
I had a friend who was particularly contrary and would annually wear orange to the St. Patrick’s Day parade. No one beat him up or really cared. Many people probably didn’t even realize it was significant.
I was not aware at all. I think most Americans of Irish descent are likely just making an ancestral connection to the island rather than with a specific ethnicity. Either that or they are far too removed from their first generation immigrant ancestors to know or care to make that distinction.
I am, but I also studied history and took a trip to Belfast a few years back.
While most Americans of (legitimate, i.e. more than 16th or so) Irish descent older than say 45 are probably aware of the difference, that knowledge has probably been lost among the public at large in the last few decades after the troubles ended. And because of how big St. Patrick’s Day is here, I’m almost positive there are a few ignorant millennials of Scotch-Irish descent who proudly claim they’re Irish in the month of March.
Yes
And these folks all get annoyed when Americans claim Irish ancestry from 3-4 generations back but you’re splitting hairs over a 3-400 year old mass migration?
In general, as Americans, we’re not really into strictly defined ethnic groups. If your family came from China to America 50 years ago and you were born in America: you’re American. If your family went from Scotland to Ireland 4 and a half centuries ago… Then we’re gonna call you Irish and frankly it feels a bit pedantic to make a big deal over further distinctions.
Tl;Dr I’m aware, I just think it’s a silly distinction to get hung up on.
Edit: not trying to be an ass, but it just always amazes me how Europeans, UK countries especially like to frame the U.S. as the most racist developed country in the world, but then will get really worked up over various subdivisions of ethnicities like this.
Yes, I’m aware. I suspect I have ancestors from both groups. I have Irish and Scots ancestors. Some of the Scots are probably by way of Ulster.
Sure, but only because my family is Presbyterian
And because I wrote a paper once about the history of the Presbyterian church in the United States
No one really cares about that shit. They see someone 4 generations back came from Ireland, so they say they are Irish.
I have to go back to my 3rd and 4th great grandparents to get to find ancestors born outside of the US. The family history has become so watered down that I have ancestors who came from both. And a few ancestors from other countries as well.
Most of us don’t have ancestry from just one place. Rather it’s from all over.
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I’m Scots-Irish descent myself. Ancestor came to the US in like 1608 or something to Virginia and that part of VA became Kentucky where there’s a large Scots-Irish descendent population.
Do y’all not consider the protestants in Northern Ireland to be “Irish?”
Unless they have an interest in history or travel, I’d put forth that most Americans would have trouble telling the difference between the UK, the British Isles, and Ireland. People have Irish heritage, but it was usually generations ago, as in they’ve never met their ancestor who came to America.
So yeah, most probably have no idea there’s a difference, because no one outside Ireland cares, just like I can claim ancestry to most of Europe and Asia, but am ignorant of the specifics. If I go visit somewhere and mention that as my heritage, that is me making conversation, not claiming I should be considered part of the group, or expecting you to treat me as such. I’m probably equal parts excited to see my familial history and ignorant of most of what has happened there, because it has had zero effect on me up until this moment.
Is it similar to the difference between a Scotch egg and a regular egg?
Aware that there’s a difference. Couldn’t tell you what it is, and from the perspective of an American saying what bit of the world there ancestors came from, almost always irrelevant. I’m speaking as someone who’s ancestors came from Ireland.
When it makes a difference is when you’re talking about history of Ireland and the British Isles, or judging by your comment, when in Ireland/UK.
I think people do know this for the most part. Scots-Irish are associated with settling in Appalachia. Growing up in NY, all the “Irish” people I know are Catholic, had ancestors come over in the late 1800s/ early 1900s, have Irish sounding surnames. I think it is common , though, to consider yourself Irish even if you have only a little Irish ancestry, because it has positive connotations
And they both lived in Ireland? Sounds like (the) trouble(s).
Aware of it, but over here, Scots-Irish is “close enough” as far as most people are concerned. Myself, I have ancestors from counties in both parts of the Emerald Isle.
I’m descended from several Scots-Irish families who settled in the Shenandoah Valley of VA and migrated from there to points south and east.
I think part of the mix up might come from the fact that many of the Scots-Irish often referred to themselves as Irish, or Irish Presbyterians even though they may have lived in Ireland for only a generation or two. Why, I don’t know, but I do know that they were so far removed from the ‘Scottish’ part of their identity that when they came in contact with the Highland Scots who later migrated to North Carolina and other locations, the two groups (apart from their names) had virtually nothing in common.
Yeah I knew there was a difference and I knew about the different religions but I don’t know anything beyond that
Scots Irish live in Appalachia mostly and the Irish live in the north east, mostly. Of course there’s people from both groups all over the country but that’s where they’re concentrated
I always just assumed I was part Scottish and part Irish.
Why is it called that if it has nothing to do with Ireland and the Irish?
The gist of what was taught me in high school US history class (the distinction was not discussed in Modern European history) was that Scots-Irish were lowland Scots planted in Ireland as part of the Ulster plantations starting sometime after the reformation. They moved to the US starting in the mid-eighteenth century and were part of the settlement of Appalachia. They were mostly Protestant. Irish, in this context, referred to famine Irish, who came here starting in the mid-nineteenth century.
I have heard that there’s a difference but I couldn’t tell you what it is. Honestly, and this is going to be pretty offensive to a lot of ya, but y’all been sitting around fucking each other on those tiny little islands for so long I can’t really tell the difference between any of yous. English, scottish, welsh, Isle of Man whatever the fuck that is, it all just means pasty and wry to me.
We don’t really care
are you kidding? all Americans are Irish on St. patrick’s day!!!
Yes we are aware and many of us are descended from Ulster Scots, Scots, *and* Irish from various parts of the old Emerald Isle. Thank you for asking.
Many of us are made up from various and sundry ancestors from various and sundry places.
Yeah but because I’m part Ulster Scot and also part Irish.
Interesting! I’ve long been aware of the existence of “Scots-Irish” as a thing because that’s part of my ancestry. I didn’t know the meaning of it; I’ve actually always assumed that someone had a Scottish parent and an Irish parent and wanted that knowledge passed down to their descendants. Have learned a lot from this thread!
Woah woah woah, so you’re telling me there are Scots, Irish, AND Scots-Irish? And this is in addition to Welsh and English? How the hell do y’all have enough room for so many different ethnicities?
Some people have both in their bloodlines. The Scots-Irish primarily came over in the colonial era. The Irish had several waves, and one of the largest was in the 1800s. They faced discrimination and formed their own subculture. Boston is known to have a higher Irish-American population than average.
Most people of actual Irish ancestry would know. We grew up hearing about the history and the Troubles and all that. In my experience it’s the southerners of Scots-Irish decent who don’t really know the difference.
I’m a huge American mutt made of Welsh, Scottish, English, Irish, and German with a little French and Spanish (Spain) for flair….who even knows. These individuals got along long enough to get their rocks off….that’s all I know. Lol
Gotta wonder about this type of conversation. Not saying they don’t exist, they absolutely do, but huge chunks of the Irish ancestry in the USA is because of the Great Famine, regardless of Scots-Irish vs Irish family origin, so why does the origin matter so much?
I descend from both Scots-Irish and Irish. Probably more Scots-Irish than Irish but haven’t found hometowns for many of my ancestors yet. Though in the same tree, through the various twists and turns over the centuries because this is my most interesting and varied tree, I have several Scots-Irish Kennedy ancestors from around 250 years ago, and several Irish Kennedy directly from the Great Famine. Greatly amused I have both Kennedys represented.
Yes because my grandpa came here from port lairge so I had more exposure to Irish culture than people who’s great great great great grandma was from Ireland.
Most of the time when I hear people talk about where their ancestors came from it’s more about nation of origin than it is their ethnicity.
If your great great grandparents lived in Ireland and then came to the US you’d tell people your family was Irish regardless of their actual ethnicity.
In my experience (coming from the south where Scots-Irish/Ulster Scots settled), anyone who has done enough research into their family history to even be familiar with that term knows what it means and where they come from. The Ulster Scots settled pretty early in American history and assimilated into Anglo/Protestant culture, so it’s not much of a distinct ethnic identity compared to Irish Catholics who largely immigrated later and didn’t assimilate as easily. I haven’t met too many people who would identify themselves as Scots-Irish outside of genealogy nerds. But that’s just my experience.
It’s a fairly important distinction to make in Appalachia and the upper-southern bits immediately beyond it.
But Scots-Irish immigration happened quite a long time ago, generally. So the particulars of what scots-Irish were doing in Ireland vs Compared to Irish-Irish don’t really last. Some guy name McNulty from Boston has stories passed down about grandpa stepping off the boat on Ellis Island in ways someone named McConnell (or what have you) from West Virginia generally would not. So Ireland-Irish already has more and more recent immigrants, and a better branding policy re: Saint Patrick’s day and the like. So ‘Ireland? Yeah, of course Scots-Irish are from Ireland. It’s in the name. I love the color green.’ Is likely a common thought process.
While it’s super cynical of me, generally, the answer to ‘’Are Americans aware of a specific cultural difference between two countries or groups that do not live on the English-speaking portion of North America’’ is probably going to be “No.”
Why are people from Ulster called “Scots” anything?
Most people tend to claim ancestry by naming the country their ancestors are from rather than the specific ethnic group in my experience . And that’s assuming we even know what that ethic group is.
I have both Scottish and Irish ancestry but is my Irish ancestry scots-irish? I have absolutely no clue.
My super racist Anglo grandmother made sure we understood that although we had plenty of ancestors from Ireland that none of them were actually Irish. I thought this was more funny than anything else as a kid and had no prejudice against my Irish-American friends, but taking a DNA test decades later confirmed she was correct. Pretty amazing that they lived in Ireland for almost two centuries and never intermarried with the natives. The hatred was certainly very real for a very long time.