They’ve known each other for 6 or 7 years, I think. I met them both in 2019. When we first met, I wasn’t as close with Alan (33m), but became immediately close with Julia (27f) and her boyfriend, Levi (also 33m).
Alan and I became really close over the last year-and-a-half or so. It started when he began having serious relationship problems, and he felt I was someone he could talk to. When he and his ex broke up, Alan’s behavior really became problematic. However, Alan also engaged in a LOT of drug use at that time, and appeared to develop an addiction to a hallucinogen. He got clean about 6 months ago, and we thought that was the root of all the negative behaviors, in that he behaved badly when he was high. It was clearly not, as many of these behaviors have continued.
I feel badly, because Julia and I, along with our partners, have made a lot of excuses for Alan because we truly thought it was drug-related and related to the pain of the end of his last relationship. We felt that the behaviors would end when he was in a better place. They broke up shortly after Alan and I became close, and they stopped talking almost a year ago now, so these behaviors can’t be excused by that anymore. Now, it’s come to a point where many people in our group are entirely disenchanted by Alan, and don’t want to be around him at all anymore. That’s what is sparking this conversation – because one person has said they won’t come to our Thanksgiving event whatsoever if Alan is there, and others have said that they will come, but will be leaving shortly because they can’t deal with Alan. We’re not going to disinvite Alan, but we want to lay out to him the inappropriateness of his behaviors to avoid others being made uncomfortable at his expense. Here are some of the concerns we and others have had:
1. Alan has made a lot of shitty comments about others’ sexualities, particularly people who are bisexual (which is the majority of our friend group). Mostly, the comments are directed at bisexual men (Alan is a gay man), and focused on why these men aren’t gay. The comments \*could\* be interpreted in a joking manner, at first, except Alan will not stop, and continues to harass them about their bisexuality. Alan will not accept that these comments are the same as others asking him why he isn’t straight.
2. On this same note, he made a transphobic comment to a transgender couple in our group – both trans women. He asked them if they considered themselves to be straight. He refused to apologize when it was explained why this was inappropriate or hurtful – said that he was just curious and they were too sensitive.
3. Alan is a Socialist, which is fine, except that he takes every opportunity possible to argue with others about politics, he will not stop when it’s clear other people are done with the conversation, and he is nasty about it if you disagree with his views. If he has decided he wants to discuss politics, you cannot stop him. It’s annoying and divisive, because while we are all left of center, we don’t all have the same politics.
4. Alan has engaged in “mean” behavior towards others that those of us closer with him interpreted as jokes. The people towards which these behaviors were pointed did not agree. In 2 of those cases, those people came to me and asked why I didn’t say anything. When I said I thought he was joking, they asked me what the punchline was. I honestly tried to defend him (we don’t want to believe our friends are mean), but the more I thought about it, the less I could see it as a joke instead of Alan just being mean.
5. Going back to look at #1, one of the men to which he engaged in this behavior was during a party where several people had taken MDMA and Alan was sober. Alan apparently followed one of the men, Seth, around while we were high to grill him on his sexuality and to make moves to snuggle with him. Seth was not interested and said so, but Alan did not let up. I learned of this like, literally 2 days ago and haven’t spoken to Alan since, but it’s fucking gross.
6. Alan recently got a new boyfriend. Alan is 33, and his boyfriend is 18. There are a lot of other red flags (I chose to meet the boyfriend) regarding their relationship that makes it particularly gross. No one is comfortable spending time around this 18yo, and Alan has been very vocal in his anger regarding that.
7. Alan read like, 4 psychology books and sees himself as a psychology expert now, which he inserts into almost every conversation he has. This one is more annoying than anything else, but sometimes it’s downright offensive, such as him texting me videos on a regular basis suggesting that my wife is a narcissist (she’s not, even if she is selfish sometimes).
8. Lastly, Alan is entirely resistant to feedback. Even just looking at #6 and #7 combined, there was a recent incident in which Alan was over to my house, and my wife and I bickered a little bit in front of him. It was normal bickering, but it made him uncomfortable, which is fine. Except that he blew it all the way out of proportion and it made it all about him, while also throwing out wild accusations – he told us our bickering was indicative of why we are GOING to get a divorce (we’ve been having some problems, but we’ve been working on them in couple’s therapy) and why we NEED to let him mediate for us, because it’s unfair that we would bicker in front of him, but not allow his input in our marriage. It was fucking wild. I told him that I appreciated he was uncomfortable with the bickering, and we wouldn’t do it in front of him again, but that his reaction was entirely too aggressive and overreaching. He doubled-down. That same night, my wife made a comment about how Alan’s 18yo boyfriend was a little young for him. He FLIPPED out, slamming his hand on the table while yelling, “I don’t care. I don’t FUCKING care. I know you’re insinuating I’m a pedophile when you say that. He’s 18, he’s a fucking adult, and I won’t talk about it ANYMORE. I don’t FUCKING CARE.” Then, he just left, and has refused to hear about it (see #6)
So, obviously, that last part is why I’m here. We have to confront him on his behaviors before this next gathering if we ever want to have large friend gatherings again, but Alan is likely not going to take any of this seriously. I know his behaviors are terrible, but I want to see him change and do better, not for the friendship to end. I’m prepared for him to respond in this way, to just be done with us entirely, but what exactly can Julia and I do to make this conversation go as smoothly as possible, and make the risk of that happening as low as possible?
​
TL;DR:
Friend has engaged in multiple negative behaviors that are causing others in our friend group to want nothing to do with him – me and another of his closer friends are planning to call him on these behaviors and ask him to better monitor himself, but he’s very resistant to feedback. I want advice on the easiest way to handle this.
Edit: Got some complaints on the initials, so I added names.
27 comments
It sounds like this is a friendship that needs to end. You are not responsible for his resistance to or hostility towards change. All you can do is lay out the issues and let him respond how he will. Unfortunately, sometimes people will only change when they lose enough friends over their behavior and sometimes even that isn’t enough.
God, he sounds exhausting.
You have a very clear choice – sacrifice your larger friendship for one person, or uninvite one person for the larger group to feel comfortable.
Although even if you do uninvite him you may have already burned your bridges with those people you have been defending the bad behaviour to. I for one would not like to asked about my sexuality repeatedly, followed around a party with the intent of sexually assaulting me (because yes, trying to force someone to ‘snuggle’ with you when they are high as a kite and have said no is crossing a consent boundary and blatantly trying to take advantage), as well as the myriad of other poor behaviour you have listed.
You’re still trying to defend him and say that he can be a nice person. Can he? Or is this who he actually is now?
Either way I don’t think that that is behaviour to be tolerated in a group environment. You can still hang out with him one on one but that’s your choice. Your party guests have already voted with their feet and are showing you that they won’t tolerate this – so why are you?
I think you know that it’s the right move; I would avoid saying you do this and that; I would focus on how it makes others feel especially hurting regardless of intention. Suggest a therapist that can challenge his views
Dude fuck that guy.
Peace, A. Maybe you’ll have friends when you’re less exhausting.
Really, I think you need to have some introspection here and ask your self what your values are. Wanting people to change is fine. Loyalty is fine. Watching someone bully people about their sexuality? Not fine. Watching your friend sexually harass people? Not fine. Taking advantage of a teenager? Not fine. What does it say about you that you have not only enabled this behavior – but are still dismissing it & condoning it. Where’s your line? Where’s the point where you say “I will not accept this in my life or expect people to accept it in their lives?
Why do you want to continue to be friends with him? He sounds awful and I didn’t even get halfway through your list before I was like “Why aren’t you uninviting him? Why are you still friends with him? Why are you choosing HIM over the people he attacks/bullies/harasses?”
Frankly if you keep sticking up for A be prepared for all your other friends to believe that you think the same as him and stop being friends with you too.
I had to keep scrolling up to remember their initials. Just say a fucking name jeez😂 doesn’t have to be theirs.
If you wouldn’t excuse these behaviors for a stranger, don’t excuse them for a friend (or former friend) either.
If you wouldn’t accept these behaviors from a stranger, don’t accept them from A.
There are much better people out there that you can have in your life. As much as I understand hating the idea of losing a friend that you were once very close with, it doesn’t sound like that friend respects you, your wife, or anyone else in your group or otherwise, for that matter.
A has repeatedly disregarded boundaries, despite knowing that they exist. They have no regard for anyone else’s feelings, and likely have a lot of growing to do before they are capable of being a good friend to literally anyone.
I think you know what the right decision is, even if it isn’t the easy one. Good luck OP.
OP, it speaks about you, how long you have been excusing and looking past his actions. It should not have taken you this long to come to such a conclusion. Hold your friend accountable.
Wow. A is an absolute toxic arsehole who is going to seriously damage your friendship group/relationships. You need to cut him adrift like now.
Flip his behaviour onto a right wing heterosexual man. Would you still accept him around?
I’ll be honest, I ain’t read all that. This guy is a *nightmare* and I’m puzzled that you’re “worried … that he will end the friendship.” This isn’t a friendship! It’s toxic! Just uninvite him because he’s awful and can’t be trusted to be decent to other people. Maybe check out the [geek social fallacies](https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/), see if any of those resonate. You deserve better.
I’m tired just reading your post. Why are you ~~spending~~ wasting any time with this exhausting person?
My advice is to eject them from your life and move on.
Given how you describe him, there is absolutely no way on this planet that A will do anything positive following a confrontation, regardless of how you bring any topic. He seems to be a narcissist and as such, will never admit to any fault. I would personally go about this differently, but again because I don’t think he can have a redemption arc: I would only tell him “Don’t be a dick to your friends, it’s Thanksgiving” the day before or something and then the first time he disrespects anybody during the dinner. If it happens again, he’s out for good. Providing him details and arguments only gives him material to defend himself, gaslight, etc. He is super toxic and he knows it but thinks he’ll just get away with it. Just cut him short at every offense and soon enough you’ll realise he’s probably not bringing much positive to the table.
Initials are a horrible way to describe people, and this sub should really have a rule against it.
But to your point: why would you want to be friends with this dude?
I’m sorry…you’re worried he’ll end the friendship? Ending the friendship with this absolute trashfire of a human being, who is bigoted, a groomer and a serial sexual-harrasser should be the *goal*!
Seriously, confront him, tell him he’s a c*nt and cut him out. Jesus fuck.
Adding a comment, because it won’t let me add this in an update.
I am about to sit down and read through all comments I’ve missed to respond. I’ve come to a couple of conclusions through the comments I have read, that I think are important to note:
First, adding a little context:
1. Seth specifically asked that we not disinvite Alan. He didn’t think it was right, since Alan has been in this group longer. The situation with Seth also happens to be something I’ve only very recently learned about. I guess I’m still processing.
2. Alan’s ex, Stu, was ousted from the group last year. When Alan and Stu broke up, he moved in with my wife and I, where it became clear that our safety was in danger. We learned he’d engaged in some very dangerous and antisocial behaviors, and he owned a gun. He also seemed to have our house bugged, and he went to great lengths to ensure that we didn’t know when he was home, ensuring that we never knew if we were alone or not. He used physical intimidation often to get his way. I’m adding this not as an excuse, but rather an explanation. I think the situation with Stu affected us further than we realized, and either a) skewed our perception of what is tolerable or b) just exhausted us in a big way. This was under a year ago.
Onto the conclusions:
1. I think I, Julia, Levi, and my wife are suffering sunk-cost fallacy. Y’all are right, Alan sucks, and I think we just want to hang on because he appeared to *once* be good. He’s clearly not now, but we’re holding onto this ideal of who he used to be. That sucks.
2. Probably my wife and I need to go to therapy regarding the Stu situation. It’s clearly colored our ideals of what a friend group should look like, and we’re still in a realm where we’re a bit paranoid from time to time. Even though it’s not an excuse for what’s going on currently, I think it’s a good awareness so we can be more ballsy and avoid situations like this with Alan in the future.
3. Julia and I are about to make this call. I will not be making any overarching attempts to save this friendship. I will state my concerns, state the ways it’s affected others, and leave the rest to him. If he wants to change, he can make an attempt, but I think, and will communicate, that it’s best for him to make those changes away from the group writ-large. Despite many in the group stating that they don’t want Alan ousted, we shouldn’t continue to support someone who behaves so negatively and hurtfully and refuses to look at their behaviors.
4. Honestly, I probably need therapy regarding friends in general. I have a history of being heavily bullied while living in an area where so few people lived, that I spent time with my bullies if they were willing, because there was no one else. I live 1,000 miles from there now in a city, and this is not the case anymore, but some scars sit deeper than others. My best friend of 17 years became a conspiracy theorist and “broke up” with me over text almost 2 years ago because I didn’t indulge his delusions. He said some of the most hurtful things any person has ever said to me before, and I still miss him sometimes and wish he’d come back, sans conspiracy. That’s not fucking healthy, and I need to do something about it.
Anyway, thank you all for your input.
We all want you to drop kick him out of the friend group. At the very least change the address for the Thanksgiving dinner and don’t tell him.
All I can say is that we all get to choose our own path. It’s kind of you to try and open his eyes, but if he chooses to walk all you can do is let him.
Who cares if he ends the friendship? Fuck this guy.
Alan is your [missing stair](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair). You’ve been hopping over him all this time and now he’s gone and rotted your porch.
I would be prepared for the worst. For some reason, you are the Alan wranglers. When you unleash the words, no matter how gentle, how “we’d really appreciate it if you could consider not sexually assaulting our friends”, prepare for Hurricane Alan to POP. OFF.
I’m mixing my metaphors. Regardless, he’s not gonna take this lying down, and all of this is likely to not be his fault. Still want to have this talk?
You could just send him a letter. “You’ve been really gross lately. Your grooming behavior and your grabby hands aren’t welcome at friend group anymore.” Aaand block. He can tantrum all he wants and you don’t have to bear the burden. That’s the kind thing to do for people who have been harassed and assaulted by him.
Alan sexually assaulted Seth (while Seth was under the influence and struggling to say no) and has sexually harassed some of your other friends. He likely groomed an 18 year old. Why would you want to continue a friendship with this biphobic transphobic predator? Alan needs professional help that you and your friend group can’t provide. Stop trying to justify or apologize for him. He needs professional help.
As soon as you said socialist I knew the exact type of person he was.
He’s not a socialist because he cares about people or thinks it’s better, he’s a socialist because he thinks it makes him smarter/better than other people.
Same exact thing you see with some libertarians.
I cannot believe you are even remotely trying to salvage a relationship with this man. He sounds absolutely horrendous. Please don’t continue subjecting other people to his presence
Look there comes a point in your life where you just don’t put up with bullshit ‘friends’. I don’t know why it matters to you so much that his man ‘grows and changes’? You’re not Cindy Lou Who and he’s not the Grinch and his heart *isnt* going to grow three sizes bigger one day because you supported him and defended him no matter how rude, abusive, aggressive, transphobic he is. He’s a bad person. Some people are just assholes. At the age of 30 it’s about time you learnt that.
Also it sounds like your friend group are done with Alan with a great fat capital D. And if you’re not careful, you’re going end up kicked out of the friend group yourself because you can’t stop defending this man despite having no earthly reason to. Our friends reflect who we are. They reflect our own values.
Yeah. Disinvite him from Thanksgiving. All this shit behaviour has had no consequences.
If he behaves like an asshole, predator, sexual assaulted, he doesn’t get friend privileges. But he’s 33, let him learn that if being right is more important to him than having friends, then his friends will dump him.
Look, while I’m very sorry to hear that he’s suffering from a drug addiction and he’s six months sober, that doesn’t mean he can’t be a tiring ahole.
You can’t continue to coddle the man and tip toe around his annoying and troublesome malarkey because maybe he will slip and go back into drugs. Even if he does, that’s on him. Not you.
Based on the evidence that you’ve stated about him and his personality, uninvite him to whatever plans, openly tell him that his personality and his habitual bullshit attitude and actions are alienating you from your other friends and say you need to distance yourself from him for a trial period of time. If he pushes or complains or does anything but get his shit together, dump him entirely and just remember that some people aren’t meant to be in your life all the time.
For some reason you seem to like Allen enough that you want to stay his friend. I ask why?
The way you describe him makes him seem to be a terrible person for a whole list of reasons:
1. He does not respect those close to him or you. (You mention numerous examples of you or others laying down boundaries and him stomping all over them. You also list examples of him holding beliefs that hurt your friends.)
2. While everyone has their own opinion on this, he’s a grown man dating a teenager whose barely legal. (This is gross and I don’t feel I should have to expand upon this.)
3. He takes no accountability for his actions. (He seems to die on every hill he builds, and the situation with you and your wife was indeed very bizarre.)
No one should cause you this much stress, and healthy friendships don’t usually come with such a hefty list of cons like this. Frankly I’ve been in an experience before where I’ve tried to salvage a friendship with someone who didn’t treat people with respect, and -despite temporary changes when they realized there was a serious chance of cutting contact- they never really changed.
So my advice is this, your friend has told you who he is. Believe him. You can try to hold some kind of intervention, but the way you portray him tells me it would not be beneficial to you or him. You might just have to accept his is who he is, or decide to put yourself above this friendship and move on.