I’ve been friends with a couple, let’s call them Jim and Jane, for about a year now. I’m a bit closer with Jim than I am with Jane. Both of our spouses are cool with this and do not care. I’ve noticed a huge lack of social etiquette over the last year from their end and I feel very strange telling middle aged adults how to conduct themselves socially but it all came to a head recently and to be honest, feel a little childish even writing this.
Here are some examples:
1) We’ve watched each others’ dogs a few times. Every time they watch ours (and for any friends who watch him), I always bring a thank you gift for their generosity. I’ve gifted them gift cards to their favorite restaurants, wine and cheese baskets, nice desserts, etc. because I truly am grateful for the time and effort in keeping my dog safe while we’re away. And he’s a very chill, tiny, easy, low maintenance dog. I watched their dog recently for 4 days and only received a verbal thank you. Jim even said, “we didn’t bring a gift, sorry,” which struck me as odd because he seems to acknowledge that the social norm is to give something small and thoughtful but just didn’t ???
2) A few months ago my dog stayed with them for a few days, a few of his items got lost/misplaced at their house. IIRC it was a harness, a dog bowl and a bag of treats. Which isn’t a big deal, things happen but Jim didn’t make any effort to locate those items and get them back to me and I had to order replacements.
3) Jim invited my husband and I to grab a very casual dinner with them and some friends for Jim’s birthday (I hadn’t met any of these friends) but was excited to be a part of his celebration and baked really nice cookies using my nice ingredients for everyone to have as dessert. The cookies were really meant for the table but Jim ended up packing up the package without offering the cookies to anyone and took them home. To be fair, they were for his birthday but it struck me as odd he didn’t offer any to anyone else at the party as there were 24 cookies.
4) This is where I got really fed up: my husband had a milestone birthday recently and I threw a party for him. I invited both Jim and Jane and got a “we’ll be there!” when I sent out invites. I try to be a very good host and I’m very conscious of everyone’s dietary restrictions and Jane has some particular ones due to autoimmune diseases that excludes A LOT of food. When Jim said yes to the invite, I asked what those restrictions were and he gave me a list. I did research and made dishes she could have to be inclusive. I even modified some of the dishes I made to not include ingredients that could make her ill (which was actually a lot of work) and with the ones I couldn’t, made her plates of her own using ingredients she couldn’t have. (Example: I made pasta salad and since she cannot have gluten, I made a separate pasta salad for her using gluten free pasta and that were not contaminated with any gluten)
I also have some dietary restrictions and an ED that creates weirdness around food. I NEVER expect anyone to go out of their way to accommodate my restrictions. Whenever the hosts has asked, I just say, “don’t worry about me!” and instead will ask what I can bring and bring dishes I can have for everyone to enjoy.
In the days before the party, everyone invited had asked what they could bring, what my husband likes, etc. The night before the party, I realized I hadn’t heard anything from Jim and Jane and reached out myself to see if they were still coming. They said they were having some visitors in town and would not be able to make it. No apology or anything, after saying yes a week prior, having ample time to let me know they wouldn’t be able to make it and me spending extra hours researching and making safe food for her. I was so *beyond* pissed. I found this was very disrespectful and rude. I’ve considered just not speaking to them but my husband thinks I’m being a little ridiculous and dramatic.
I rarely ever get upset with friends like this. I never argue or fight with my siblings, friends nor my spouse. If something has ever come up, we address it diplomatically, so I don’t have any issues navigating difficult conversations. My husband thinks I should have a chat with them and address it, but I feel very weird explaining to two middle aged adults in their 40’s (many years my senior) why that wasn’t cool. IMO, they’ve shown a pattern of lack of respect and basic decorum so it doesn’t make sense to continue a friendship with anyone like that. But we live in the same neighborhood so I can’t really avoid them.
Am I being petty or am I justified here?
TLDR: A nice couple my husband and I are friends with have little to no social etiquette and I’m considering ending the friendship over it.
33 comments
They’re adults so it’s not your place to correct them.
If they don’t meet your expectations they’re not really the right friends for you.
Take people as they are or don’t hang out with them anymore.
Two thoughts:
First – I’m also a “thoughtful” person. I rarely show up anywhere empty handed… I’ll go above and beyond to accommodate. But I have been trying to forgive those who don’t or can’t, because I know the extra steps I take I CHOOSE to. I’m not sure where your mindset lands on this spectrum, but expecting others to reciprocate as you do is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
But second – these people are mad rude. Relationships may not be transactional, but their behaviour seems to verge on disrespectful! I would just stop being accommodating, and stop initiating. See what happens. If things fizzle so be it…
I agree that it’s not your place to try to fix their behaviour at this point. Maybe they’ll ask what’s up, at which point you could have a response prepared that doesn’t come off as too accusatory?
Anyway good luck OP! I think you’re justified here.
Everything you describe is acceptable in some friend groups, but not others. Some friends would consider the exchange of dogsitting a fair trade, and not see the need for thank you gifts. Some friends would consider the cookies a gift, rather than a dinner contribution. And some people consider parties events that they’ll “try” to come to. So if they’re not your kind of people, they’re not, but you’re not going to change adults, and they’re not really doing anything wrong – they just aren’t how you are, or how you’d like them to be.
The only thing that struck me as quite rude was RSVPing yes to the party, and then not even informing you – until you double-checked – that they would not be coming. It sucks that you put so much effort into making separate dishes for your friend, but in hindsight that effort was misplaced.
People don’t realize the effort that goes into hosting, and how important an accurate count is. You’d be surprised how many people don’t think RSVPing matters, and it cuts across all age groups. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by telling them you don’t appreciate their rudeness. But you can dial back your friendship efforts by mentally placing them in the acquaintance category.
1. It’s totally not necessary to give a gift when you’re exchanging dog sitting
2. Ok, they’re disorganized
3. Dude, you made him cookies for his birthday and you’re mad he didn’t share them? Weird. This is more about you getting recognition for ‘using your nice ingredients’ then actually giving a gift to him…
4. That’s rude, they should have let you know; I think they are disorganized but it’s no excuse. But your hole ‘I just let people ignore my dietary restrictions’ but is just… weird. Again, it’s like you’re socially going through the motions with a set of secret expectations and then being put out when others have no idea what those expectations are.
You sound like you should really chill. You have a set of rules in your mind that others don’t necessarily know or share and you’re pretty rigid. These people are disorganized and it doesn’t sound like a good friendship fit for you.
Edit: u/burnalicious111 has some great and compassionate observations below about how this behaviour develops in childhood when we are learning what a ‘good person is’. Op is obviously making substantial effort.
This sounds less like malice and more like a combination of thoughtlessness and not knowing the “classic” social rules.
If you don’t want friends like that, that’s fine, but if you do want to keep the friendship, rather than calling them out for past behavior, I’d suggest using your words and telling them what you want them to do (with the exception of the gifts; just match their energy if you resent the imbalance). Ask them to find stuff that gets lost at their house. Ask them to share gifts that are supposed to be for the whole group. Tell them you need a definite answer if you invite them to things because it requires a lot of extra work. How they respond will tell you whether this friendship is salvageable.
well you went ridiculously overboard with the food, you can start there. Then giving gifts for looking after the dogs: you look after each other’s dogs now and again, so that’s the gift right there. No need for extra.
With the dog stuff: you should have insisted you pick them up when you discovered them missing.
A lot of this is on you.
I don’t think you can say anything to them. Just plan accordingly. You can be friendly if you run into them but not be friends with them. If they ask you to watch their dog and you don’t want to, just say you won’t be able to.
Social etiquette varies, and people from different backgrounds or with different upbringings often have different rules for etiquette. If you want to remain friends with them, you have to let go of the idea that your way is right and figure out where in the middle you can meet them.
I think a lot of this can be solved by you just…doing less. You don’t have to give them the Cut Direct, just try to match their energy instead of expecting them to match yours. They aren’t doing the stuff that you do because they don’t see it as important. The imbalance is the problem.
Maybe the next time they dog sit for you, give them a verbal thanks, and mentally plan to return the favor sometime. Next time you invite them to a party, say “hey I know you have some food restrictions, is there a particular dish that I could include for you?” and include that one dish instead of bending yourself into pretzels trying to edit the whole menu.
Of course, you can also try direct communication. Or you can reduce them to small-doses friends, or cut them off entirely. It’s up to you. But the issue isn’t “my friends have no social graces and are bad at adulting” the issue is “I prioritize things differently than my friends do.”
Frankly I think you’re just putting too much into the relationship, most people aren’t so thoughtful & it’s draining to give! Give! Give!
Without anything in return.
Stop giving & just enjoy their company, or don’t.
I feel like most of these things are products of your own expectations and not necessarily their faults. Did you say, “I brought these to share” when giving him the cookies? Did Jane specifically request for you to make special food for her? I feel like a lot of arguments/resentments happen because of unmet expectations that were never communicated. And while these might seem like normal social standards to you, not everyone knows this or are taught this growing up. You need to speak up about what you want/expect.
You seem thoughtful and kinda fun, but I think your motives for doing these things are not pure. I think you’re attention seeking in a nice way. Try to stop this! Your expectations are crazy high!
Having just come from discussions about personality types, have you ever checked yours? The troubles you’re having sounds very “ISFJ” when under stress.
I echo what a lot of others are saying.
They sound very disorganised and maybe a lack of social grace, however, there are also a lot of expectations you are setting that they have no idea about – this is on you. You’re not wrong, it would be nice if everyone was super considerate and did all the things you do for others back to you – but you can’t get angry when they don’t, because that makes your kind actions not so kind, because they have strings attached. If you want to be kind, then just be kind. Forgive their actions and forgive yourself for not wanting to be their friends and do nice things for them. Every relationship is unique and they’re not obligated to meet your standards.
This isn’t that big a deal other than the RSVP for the party.
Remove them from the “close friends I do things for” box and place them in the “acquaintances, low maintenance friendship” box. You have to take people as they are and decide what place they have in your life, if any.
You know who they are. Either embrace it or stay away. It’s not your job to change them.
You’re upset that you give gifts for watching your pet, and J&J do not. They reciprocate pet sitting, isn’t that enough or did you need gift cards and some fanfare?
Or maybe they can afford to watch your pet, ask you to watch theirs, but think the friendship doesn’t need gift cards too?
You made cookies a a gift. Did you give them in a restaurant? Some places do not allow outside food on the premises. More importantly, you give a gift, you do not dictate how, when, or if it is used by the recipient.
The party?? You go on about the effort you made, research, etc but you never say if your husband was offended? And the surprise out of town guests are that, a surprise.
I wonder if you’re more upset that J&J aren’t tripping over themselves to publicly acknowledge your greatness and benevolence at every opportunity, or see you as the second coming of Emily Post.
My guess? J&J think your husband is wonderful but couldn’t tolerate you again. Gotta keep the doses small?
Tl;Dr. You aren’t Dear Abby or the arbiter of social mores. Keep your mouth shut, and stop the gifts with the intention of reciprocity or public fanfare.
Stop doing nice things that aren’t reciprocated. For me personally, I would find the kinds of gifts you’re describing every time dog-sitting happened as way too much, and I would low-key feel resentful that now I felt obligated to get you some fancy gift when I’m fine with us just taking turns dog-sitting. If you want to do nice things for people beyond the basic exchanging of favors, you can – but if it consistently isn’t reciprocated, stop doing it. You aren’t obligated to. Some of the behaviors by them that you described, I would also find rude – but my response would be to lower my expectations and stop doing “extra” stuff for them when I know it isn’t going to come around. Some of my friends, I do gift-y things with. Other friends I don’t. Also, you can’t be upset with people about not taking dietary restrictions into consideration if you tell them each time not to worry about you. Be honest, and if they STILL don’t adjust for you, then that’s them *knowingly* not taking your preferences/restrictions into consideration. But faulting people for things they don’t know is unfair. The RSVPing thing was definitely rude. I’d mention it at some point. “Hey, it was upsetting to me that you guys had time to let me know you wouldn’t be coming to our thing, but didn’t, and we only found out at the last minute because we asked. In the future, can you give us more of a heads up?” If they repeat the same behavior, invite them less. Or invite them to things that aren’t as personally important and you don’t really care if they flake.
I think you need to accept that they’re flaky and unreliable and not put more work into the friendship than they do. You can express that your feelings are hurt or you want more contact, but ultimately at our age you need to just figure out which friends are worth that level of energy. I have looser friends who I know are flaky and not very good at reciprocating effort and tbh I just don’t do much for them whereas my friends who are thoughtful and reliable are the people I extend my own reliability and go out of my way for. You can’t really change people, but you can save yourself the stress of super lopsided friendships by not giving people energy when you know they won’t return it.
That said, my friends never give me gifts for feeding/watching their pets or anything. We just do nice things for each other. I don’t expect a gift for doing them a favor because I know they’ll do me favors or do other nice things for me at other times (and they do. they’re very thoughtful which is why I always say yes to feeding their animals). I don’t think everything always needs to be tit-for-tat, but I do think you should not do favors for friends who don’t or wouldn’t do favors for you. It will only make you frustrated and resentful.
It seems like you expect a lot from people because it’s what you would do, but that’s not necessarily what’s considered normal or expected for everyone, especially when some people might have been raised very differently or even in a different culture. The last example really was shitty of them since you made it clear you were going to try to make food with her needs in mind and that’s really not okay imo, but the other stuff is a bit more about your own expectations being a bit too high for the people you know they are. Stop giving so much of yourself.
Did they both accept,the party invitation? My ex would accept any social invitation without knowing what else was going or really what he was accepting. Commonly we were double booked.
If this was a relationship I would say you have different love languages. The simple solution here is to realize that Jim and Jane don’t really expect or appreciate the things that you do. Doesn’t make them bad just means you guys are playing by different rules. No bad guy here. Just don’t spend your energy doing things that they don’t want or appreciate. You watch their dog they watch your dog end of story. Go ahead and invite them to dinner but don’t change your meal prep plans.
This brings to mind a podcast (wish I remembered what it was) about being generous without being walked all over. My main takeaway – and I use it as a mental check ALL the time – was to not do nice or helpful/charitable things expecting something in return. To me, this especially applies if someone didn’t ask for whatever you want to do for them. 1. You’re setting yourself up for a let down and 2. It’s in fact not being nice or charitable when approached that way. It’s doing something to get something back for yourself.
And sure, you’re doing nice things, but did they ask for these things? Did Jim ask for a gift card? Or cookies? Or for you to make special food? Did they even know you were making special food? Did they ignore you when you said, “Hey, Jim, I made these cookies for the party. I hope there’s enough for everyone!”? It doesn’t sound like it but you’re resenting them as if they did and as if you effectively communicated any of this to them.
Additionally, it’s not unreasonable to assume a package given to you on your birthday is in fact for you.
I love to do nice things for my friends. I love giving them gifts, hosting parties, etc. But I have never expected anything in return and I don’t think I’d associate with someone whose acceptance of me depended on my willingness or ability to give them physical things.
Regarding this
>Jim invited my husband and I to grab a very casual dinner with them and some friends for Jim’s birthday (I hadn’t met any of these friends) but was excited to be a part of his celebration and baked really nice cookies using my nice ingredients for everyone to have as dessert. The cookies were really meant for the table but **Jim ended up packing up the package without offering the cookies to anyone and took them home**.
This reads to me as though you were all in a restaurant? If so, then then the cookies couldn’t be shared and Jim did the right thing.
If it was at someone else’s home, then you shouldn’t be offering dessert without prearrangement.
So a couple observations:
• how frequently do you watch each others’ dogs? The gift thing might be a little excessive unless it’s for an extended stay/emergency.
• however, they definitely should have done more after losing your dog supplies at their house.
• It’s plausible Jim thought the cookies were a gift for him to take home instead of something to be shared with the group. Since it sounds like this was at a restaurant it’s not unreasonable.
• it sounds like you had done all the special cooking *before* checking in with Jim and Jane to make sure they were coming.
Honestly it doesn’t sound like their behavior is all that unreasonable, but more like you’re realizing maybe this friendship isn’t working?
OMG you really seem like such a high maintenance friend! Imagine keeping a score with your friends about the favors and gifts you give in exchange, or walking on your tiptoes while watching your dog because you are keeping the score of what is out of place, if they are really your friends you accept people with their disorganized ways. Certainly RSVPing and canceling was a very unthoughtfull thing but you know? There is people who’s lifes are chaotic and exhausting and things fall out of the cracks don’t be so judgmental and just let them know you felt your time was not valued.
Most of your list doesn’t seem all that bad to me. They definitely should have RSVP’d, but it likely wasn’t maliciousness or carelessness. Sounds like they are just a bit disorganized and very low-key; probably not the types to do a lot of hosting themselves, so they fail to realize how much work actually goes into planning/organizing social events. If you feel the need, it would be fine for you to text Jim and say “Hey, next time I would really appreciate more notice if and when you guys aren’t going to make it. I put a lot of time and effort into accommodating Jane’s dietary needs, and it was kind of frustrating to have it all go to waste. But no big deal, hopefully you two can make it to the next get-together!” (or something to that effect).
If I were you, I’d start investing waaaay less into your relationship with them, and lower your expectations. Meet them where they are, not where you want them to be, and don’t go out of your way so much when you already know they aren’t likely to do the same. You sound like a gracious and conscientious person, but don’t forget that not everyone values (or has much awareness of) social contracts the way you do.
You shouldn’t give gifts with the expectation of receiving something back.
While it’s a nice gesture, getting mad about not getting a gift back defeats the whole purpose of gifting in the first place.
It also puts unnecessary pressure on people who may not have the time or money to reciprocate.
You are thoughtful and went to a lot of trouble to make food for your neighbours but don’t expect anyone else to think the same way you do. They’re obviously very laid back people who don’t dwell on the details
It’s nice but not mandatory to give someone a gift for house sitting/babysitting/pet sitting. Don’t expect anything not promised.
Jim & Jane sound a little flakey with the dog sitting. Perhaps have someone else dog sit and have them do the same.
A present can be used however the recipient so desires once given ESPECIALLY if not told immediately how you would like the gift used. You could have said “I made your party guest cookies…” in front of the guests.
Rsvp’ing and canceling when asking for accomodations seems a bit rude. That being stated, it sounds like the food was still edible if not your first choice. I’d be inclined to tell Jim & Jane the next time they are invited to a party with multiple guests that you cannot accommodate Jane’s food restrictions but are ok with her bringing her own food.
The only thing that seems rude is the party. I seems like you’re really mad about that so your trying to lack on to anything that may come off as rude. That being said it wouldn’t hurt to let them know that in the future (if there is one) that you absolutely need a RSVP and to stick to it.
I literally would not care about any of these except the RSVP, and even then it’s on you for going out of the way. I’d have told them to bring their own food.
The RSVP is rude, imo. Everything else is them just not being you. Stop giving gifts only to get gifts back. Stop controlling what people do with their gifts. Let people know when things go missing and you want them back, don’t expect them to keep a mental inventory for you. As with so many issues on this sub, the solution is “communicate more directly”.
They’re just not that into you. Everyone isn’t a Martha Stuart or Dear Abby. Doesn’t make them terrible people. If you really are such good friends, you should just be able to have a convo about it.
Honestly you sound like a lot.