I’m 23M. Relatively attractive. I’ve had a handful of spontaneous/casual relationships. And 1 serious relationship.
I took 0 initiative in creating any of these “relationships”; they were always initiated by the woman. I’ve never initiated anything with a woman, nor have I really ever felt the desire to. And I mean never. Never even initially flirted.
It’s always felt…immoral? Like yeah sure I guess I could try and start something romantic, but I’ve stopped every time I’ve felt like that cause it just feels so sleazy and ingenuine.
When I hear men talk about “game” or needing confidence or whatever, I don’t get it. I have plenty of confidence! But using that in a “game” and getting “competitive” about it like a “man” is almost laughable to me. It seems extremely immature and childish. And potentially hurtful to you and the other person.
In some way or another, having game or “turning it on” or whatever you want to call it, is not genuine. It feels like there’s no way of escaping it. My natural personality is to not have “game” or to chase at all. So I don’t.
It seems like a good portion of men also have this innate lack of desire for the “game”, but eventually participate in it cause they feel the need to and obviously are culturally pressured to do so.
Idk, I haven’t seen any other conversation about this so I figured I’d post about it. Having a lack of game, but also a general desire not to have one AND some sort of moral/philosophical backing for not participating in it.
Also think it’s laughable with the whole idea like men need to “practice” on their game and how it’s a skill to build up. Does no one other man feel a sense of shame thinking about doing this??? Literally building up some paradigm of what will attract a woman so you can get what you want…that is extremely inauthentic (and therefore, immoral) to me and I’m more surprised there aren’t more men that think this way.
50 comments
23F here. Totally understand what you’re saying. This human peacock show that men have been socialized to put on the attract women is…weird if you think about it. Game is also usually associated with being able to “pull” a lot of different type of women. To me, game= having the ability to be a womanizer.
I think that’s what makes the quiet, nerdy, “weird” so incredibly attractive to some women because they’re not annoyingly trying to seduce or woo you. Most times the attempts at wooing are also yucky.
If you feel uncomfortable discussing ‘game’ with your peers, it is in the way they are phrasing it, discussing it, and their perspective on it. Don’t let this get you down, most likely they don’t have a deep understanding of what they are doing and are goal oriented to try to sleep with an attractive stranger.
Let’s change the term to flirting. Flirtation is happening all of the time all around you, but you probably aren’t tuned into it. 95% of flirtation starts with body language and develops in that before any words are spoken to each other. If you begin to focus on all of these unspoken communications, you will notice it is a delicate dance between two people who may be attracted to each other. It usually takes a while of this non-verbal communication before there is an opportunity for you to approach and introduce yourself. This dance should be enjoyable for both sides of the flirtation, the more you practice this the better you will get at the dance, and finally you are much more likely to find a good match for your personality.
May good fortune guide you in your flirtations!
You sound ugly asf from your second blip of a sentence
Sir, may I direct you to the r/aromantic community?
>I’ve never initiated anything with a woman, nor have I really ever felt the desire to. And I mean never.
This is OK! Not everyone is interested in relationships and that’s OK. If you still want a sexual relationship, learning the terms aromantic and asexual should make it easier to navigate that situation without feeling like you’re leading women on. If you’re not interested in getting into any kind of relationship at all, it’s ok to just say that.
No offense. But do you even like women romantically? It kind of sounds like you don’t. Maybe you’re aromantic.
Or maybe you have a really warped view of things, if you see it as a “game” to win instead of relationships to grow with others.
Nice humblebrag
What are you looking for by posting this? More like minded people who share your pov?
From reading your post and comments it just seems like you’re trying to vent about this “immoral” feeling you have? Other guys do want to date people and that’s their decision, whether you think it’s silly or immoral is your opinion and they have their own too. Why talk down about the general public like that? Honestly it seems like you either don’t understand why people are attracted to others and date, or you yourself don’t find dating that interesting. Both are cool, just maybe don’t try to sound better then other man and act like dating is a barbaric act that your to good for…
I love reading a Reddit like this, lol everyone points their own opinions and subjective ideologies on something so simple yet complex. Or those who, “ this is what you meant and this is what I’m saying to what I think you mean”.
Life is so full of views and no one’s on the same page
That’s because referring to dating as a game is (imo) immoral, or well… At least strange. If you meet another person and you both like eachother enough to snuggle, than that’s gonna be beneficial to both of you cus humans like to snuggle. I literally cannot comprehend why anyone would make it more complicated than that. As far as I am aware, with my limited social circle, women do not talk about dating like it’s a game, or a market , or any weird shit like that. They just want to be with someone who makes them feel comfortable, and a bit titillated as well. Of course 1% of the population doesn’t even want that, and that’s fine too.
literally no one is forcing you to participate in game or anything else, unclench your asscheeks
38m wtf are you talking about?
Dood livin on ez mode out here preachin
I’m not a man, but I feel really similar to what you are saying. To me it feels unnatural to be playing some sort of game with someone else I don’t know because I don’t know them, I prefer a much more straightforward approach to someone I like instead. Talking to them, being real is a huge part of building trust for me, never been interested in casual dating.
Yeah it’s immoral when you treat women like less than
Human.
Women are people too
I think I understand what you are saying. You feel like men developing a set of tactics aka “game” specifically to attract women to get what they want (likely sex) seems and feels immoral. You feel like people should display their true personalities to have relationships. Developing tactics so you can exclusively display desirable qualities is not a good way to display personality and you believe it’s morally flawed.
If I’m right, then yes I generally agree. It feels uncomfortable for me to be anything but my true self. I can filter myself but after a while it’s exhausting. Creating a whole different persona for the sake of sex and a stilted relationship seems wrong and…the social equivalent of the Bataan Death March.
But even if your goal isn’t necessarily to just have sex, how effective is it really? I’d say you were lucky. I think most of us average guys are pretty easily ignored unless we create some overly charismatic extension of ourselves and fight for attention.
I hope that makes sense. I had a long day, idk if I communicated that well.
imo it sounds like you’re icked out about the concept of seeing women as prizes to be won in this “game”. if that’s the case, congrats!! you’re a decent human being.
by “starting smth romantic”, do you mean “turning on the game”? bc i don’t see those as equal things. being interested in someone and approaching them to get to know them better is not sleazy or not genuine. it’s part of being a human! we’re made for companionship and commitment.
this might be a long shot, but have you heard of “Theology of the Body”? you sound like you might be interested in it. it’s all about making genuine relationships and bringing actual, practical love to the table–not flirting and hooking up to score points.
I’ve never read something I’ve related too more I am relatively attractive and have had a handful of casual relationships and 1 serious one every time the girls have initiated I’ve never flirted with a girl or initiated anything until they make a move or ask me to hangout and we get close enough during a 1v1 hangout when she exhibiting choosing signals, for me to make a move I also feel pick up and “game” is really sleazy and cringe like what I’m supposed to go up to a girl who I don’t know or know what’s she’s like just because I find her attractive and try to convince her to have sex with me? And then if I do have sex with its like I playing game trying to get her to like me and wondering and fawning over if she likes me back, it all just seems really disengenuine. I guess you can look at it from the other point of view (the girls shoes) and it would sound silly. But I feel like guys get a bad rap of being dogs and creepy and aggressive trying to prey on women and that’s not something i want to portray. I’m 22 but also I feel like I’m in college with a ton of women around me out and about and maybe I need to learn some game after I graduate where I won’t be in a much larger dating pool like you said (societal pressure) I actually just started a tinder today and have never really tried dating apps but since I decided my last situationship would be better off as friends, I found her really physically attractive but her personality was abysmal and the sex was too vanilla and I’m not one to pressure a girl to do anything sexually she doesn’t want to, it would take the fun out of it not to mention wrong. I don’t usually comment but this post caught my eye because it’s exactly my situation and how I feel.
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I have felt very similar to OP sentiments. I used to hook up and talk to the pretty girls because it seemed like the obvious and most natural thing to do. But it felt meaningless, vain, and empty.
In my experience, it helped me a ton to stop thinking of other people and focus on myself. The way I see it now, “the game” is not good or bad. Only the people who see it as a game treat it as a game. I can choose to treat it as a “game” or not. To be fair, I do believe that flirting and socializing is not different from anything in life. The more you do it, the less mistakes you’ll make, the more confident you’ll become, and the better you’ll be at it. But is the goal to be able to score with any woman or the hottest one?
Success if defined by each individual. My only responsibility is to find out what MY definition of success is. Whether that definition involves 1 woman, 100 woman, or 0 woman is entirely up to me. Luckily there’s a lot more to enjoy in life while I find the answer to that question.
Lol this is exactly the argument I had with some of my friends recently: The dating scene is just a playground right now how is everyone ok with it?
I completely agree with you
My advice would be perhaps ask yourself why those things repulse you? Also there’s no shame in not desiring any of those things. There are many different ways to meet partners and it doesn’t always have to be romantic or sexual either. I detect a hint of aromantic/asexual tones in your post but on the lighter side of the spectrum.
All in all, I relate to your frustrations with men and talking “game” it’s quite lame most of the time and it reeks of ignorance and that they have no experience dealing with women in general.
Just keep digging and doing you, glad you spoke up about something that I feel is more common than we think. I think pornography coerces a lot of young people into thinking they are obligated into entering sexual relationship.
It appears you see approaching women as black and white. Its either be platonic and never approach, or be a pickup artist who sees it all as a game and a way to manipulate people. There is a middle ground that most guys are doing. We approach women with genuine attraction seeking a human connection and see if maybe we are compatible for a relationship.
We all have some game inherent, it’s a natural aspect of socialisation. I resonate with the idea of the immoral aspect. I think this might be about shame around ‘using‘ women or something like that.
We have an idea of whats ‘good’ and wholesome but the realities of the world don’t fit in with those.
Deciding not to have game, is also game, you might be gaming yourself 😉
So….. what’s the problem?
I think you’re more disillusioned by the perceived ‘sexual marketplace’ than game itself. It can be a rude awakening, finding out how things actually work.
Shatters our ideas or romantic notions etc… Women usually do initiate, most men just don‘t notice so they assume they were leading the whole thing…
Associating sex with love is essential for creating lasting relationships. Modern hookup culture is an obstacle to that.
Modern dating culture is historically unique, and is not the result of centuries of adaptation. It is likely to be modified over the next few generations, although that is difficult without broad cultural religious standards.
It is a game and not a nice one at that. 2 marriages, 3 children and I still suck at the whole thing. I’m impatient and got tired of the bullshit dating game. If I could’ve had an arranged marriage, I probably would’ve. My husband and I are separated now due to him cheating, but I don’t even care enough to get a divorce. He lives in his fantasy world pretending now we never got married and I’m cool with it. Broke my heart last year but it is what it is.
If you have zero interest in having relationships with women, stop having them. If flirting is so unappealing to you that you liken it to immorality, stop doing it. Look into asexuality. Maybe you’re like that.
Most sexual grown-ups find flirting fun and don’t put too much stock into having “game”, at least by age 40ish anyway lol
That’s because it is! At least, the way it’s currently done in society. It wasn’t always like this.
Be authentic and work on being your absolute best self and try and find someone wholesome to make your spouse.
Hook up culture is trash. And truthfully most of them are miserable after only a couple of years of this. Secretly, most of them all want that happy marriage too. Although some won’t admit it.
Yours is the result of a PC culture, where men are shamed to the point some dont even know/are too afraid to initiate with women, because theyll get slammed. My body my choice etc, feminism etc.
Just look at whats happening in Japan.
Getting good at social interaction because you want new & better social interactions is not immoral or unnatural.
You haven’t seen other animals mating games.
Never change my guy.
I agree with OP and have always felt the same. When and if you meet someone authentic, you can be authentic and no game is needed. If both of you are yourselves and enjoy one another you won’t be thinking about game. If it works, it works, no need to worry about game. Leave that for those that want to play it.
That’s because you are an alpha and they are betas. Alphas are the sun and women are the planets (betas are moons). Double down on your vibe and behaviour
The privilege of being born attractive.
I feel u on this. I can tell you are very intelligent as well. Your story about your take on this topic seems exactly how i would write it. People with hyper intelligent brains that base a lot of their reasoning and life actions around logic and a more conscientious outlook on life tend to see the game for what it really is. I might call myself (and possibly you as well) neuroatypical as someone who *isn’t* neurodivergent (asd,bipolar,etc), however is *still* an outlier on an intelligence percentile scale. I thought i had something wrong with me as well until i realized my father was a verified mensa member. But anyways you see, this expanded consciousness that you have is something that is actually a superpower if you think about it. The perspective you have is the true “redpill”. People who try to learn “game” are simply people who don’t get it, but want to satisfy their hormonal instincts – which is natural and there’s no problem with it. But if you take a step back as you have been living, you quickly realize that you are actually in the best position on the chessboard. You see everything clearly. You see through the bullshit. You understand the fact that sexual chemistry between two people are dependant on way more than how smoothly someone can use memorized linguistic patterns. You’ve realized that intentions are the roots of any verbal interaction that takes place, and with that given you know that any words that are said mean nothing in comparison to what the intent of words were (ie it matters more about how you say it than what you say blah blah blah). But these are all things that should be inherently obvious to all these dudes tryna “learn game”. Like bruh game is natural. If you are a great guy, people respect you, you have a little bit of manners, you speak with conviction, you have no fear of the unknown or confrontation, like you’re literally fine. And people overhype the fuck out of sex. The steps are so simple. You literally just be cool with people and talk to people you like. If they like you too then you guys find something to do alone to get to know each other better, just like normal fucking human beings. And if you guys click then sex just happens naturally when you two are in the mood and are in a place that works. You’d have to be seriously psyching yourself out to be with a girl alone for more than 15 minutes and not notice if she likes you or not based on how they talk. And trust me I missed out on so much falling victim to that before i realized that when i lost my virginity few years ago. It’s not complicated. But eventually i did watch some of these redpill youtube videos to see what it had to offer. I tried shit they talked about, and yes it works, but you won’t be getting the girl you really want. And I mean that morally and literally. You’ll nut in her and be sittin there like, well fuck that was fun but uhh yeah now lets get you home. And after doing that with somebody for 6 months it just gets tiring and you realize you’d rather have your time back than get another nut off. Because time is the most valuable thing. And that’s the point I’m tryna make. Your time is too valuable to be fucking around with people who don’t understand the reality of “the mating game” for lack of a more inclusively accurate term. Let the sheep go to sleep with the blanket of their delusions. Allow yourself to trust yourself that you’re literally completely fine. There’s so many women out their that would appreciate your honest outlook on the game rather than dealing with another rizz kid that wants to talk about tattoos on the first date. Anyways that was fucking long if u read it all, props, ik i went off but I’ve been thinking the same thoughts as you for a while. Take care
you’re attractive, so the women initiate with you, so you don’t have to work for what you get…at all
it’s a mistake to present that as being morally superior to guys practicing game
be grateful that you’re attractive, and have respect for people who have to work for their meals
The problem is that you’re pretty. Hi, other pretty male here.
You’re probably some version of the giga-chad of your community. It’s like a fucking curse.
Whatever, boo on the haters. My point here is that you’ve had to ‘play’ the ‘game’ a little differently your whole life. You’re not exactly average, so an average approach generates disgust.
You don’t need to practice anything. Don’t play *that* game. Loveless sex is worse than masturbating for me.
There is a book, Models by Mark Manson. It’s been the clearest picture of that companionship COULD look like when you ‘play’ the ‘game’ for yourself.
I jokingly call it Avatar sex. When you’re connecting with someone on all cylinders, emotional, physical, spiritual, etc – you’ll be having the best time of your life. Link up your mental Velcro to someone. Stop focusing on the bussy.
Do you like a person? Do they like you? Are you able to be yourself around them? Are they able to be themselves around you? If the answer to all of these is yes, then there is nothing sleazy or immoral about it. If the answer to any of them is no, what are you even trying to accomplish? You’re not trying to persuade someone to do something they don’t want to do, that would be messed up. You shouldn’t be “acting”.
>Also think it’s laughable with the whole idea like men need to “practice” on their game and how it’s a skill to build up
Not all men get the socialisation they need to be adept at being themselves around others. They tend to be awkward and not know how to act, because they think it involves doing something other than being a naturally good person. Those people absolutely need practice.
I always felt like “less of a man” in a way compared to my friends who plays all kinds of games to get women. Then I realized that anyone who actually likes you will like you for reasons that you can’t actually control. I’m just going to keep doing what I do.
Having “game” means you are good with women, you’re not playing a game, you have game. Maybe you have already cracked the code so its easy for you to attract women, however for the most of us we need to work on ourselves to become more likeable. Idk what’s weirding you out about people trying to become more intriguing and better to talk to.
Step 1. Have a desire to mate or connect with a woman
Step 2. Communicate and express said desire with words and/or body language since humans are not yet capable of telepathy
That’s all the “game” is. How the heck else do you expect men to express their interest other than by saying or doing things??
It sounds like you have a weird hang-up about men having the intent to attract women in the first place when it’s literally the most natural thing. Being genuine is then all about being transparent with your intent. The way you addressed both of these concepts, showed some cognitive dissonance you have to work through imo.
It’s not a game and it’s not immoral. It’s how the species propagates.
Cultural baggage might be immoral. I will suggest you look at some of your cultural baggage. Christianity is super into shame and “morality”, and imo brainwashing kids of these weird beliefs is the real immorality
Were you raised Christian? In that case you’ll need a therapist to unpack that mental conditioning
I don’t know you very well and how you interact with people, but for what I’m reading if you “don’t play the game” in a way where you don’t initiate anything it can be seen as “hard to get”, making it even more appealing for woman who does play (interpreting it has you playing). The “game” is just a metaphor of courting, and it is everywhere in nature: birds, mammals. I’m not aware of courting in lizard or fish, so maybe the lizard part of your brain is larger (just a joke here 😉 ).
Nothing is authentic.
It seems like you haven’t any other way to look at relationships other than as a claim to another person. That’s not what real loving relationships are about at all. If you change your outlook on the subject then you might find it easier to accept a partner.
From your post and comments you seem to see this game as unnatural and foreign but its actually very natural. Its natural to act differently in order to gain intimacy from the opposite sex. Male peacocks showing off the colors of feathers and many different mammals(bears, moose, whatever) fight for the female, and similar for reptiles. I only see it as natural to try to boost yourself to earn the intimacy of the opposite sex. By looking at this way as you’re just pursuing the natural desire for commitment and intimacy versus a game to earn points it may be easier for you to feel comfortable doing. Of course within reason but that’s how I look at it anyway.
Whether men like it or not, attracting a mate is a function of how they behave and actively convey their value to prospects. That behaviour is the act of marketing & selling themselves as a sexual/relationship opportunity.
You can choose to market & sell yourself honestly. If you want something, you don’t have to be dishonest to get it. You can still be honest & genuine about it.
Societal conditioning and social norms are that men have to take the initiative and make things happen. It is therefore exceptionally rare for women to do this. For men, being passive & pretty simply doesn’t work – it’s leaving everything to chance, waiting for a train that never comes.
Men who are socially incompetent and don’t know how to talk to the opposite sex & flirt, because they refuse to for whatever reason, will rarely be considered attractive.