How do you feel about Europeans in the current context of the war in Ukraine?

34 comments

1. I don’t feel anything about Europeans particularly, and I don’t care how else they spend their tax revenue, but they clearly have been (and continue to) rely on the US militarily and defensively for far too long.

2. I do not hold the viewpoints described in this post. my opinion of the EU and people who live there has not changed.

3. Russian propaganda. Anyone that sided with murderous dictators against their own countries should be forced to live under their boot.

4. >On the German and European side, I am hearing growing resentment against the US because it is maintaining a proxy war against Russia in order to satisfy the profits of its military industrial complex to the detriment of European companies and the livelihood of the EU citizenry (Poland excluded).

   I have a tough time believing there are many people who actually think this. What few who do must be willfully ignorant as to the reality of the world.

   I think there is some validity to thinking Europe should have been doing more for their own defense, but people are way overblowing the savings to the US budget if they think cutting back our European military presence could do all those things.

5. Our options are just let Russia take Ukraine or oppose them.

   Europeans seem to be fine with throwing Ukraine to the wolves.

   I don’t see that as being in the US’s interests.

   As far as your second point, Europe isn’t pulling their weight here. I don’t think there’s any doubt. Does that mean we should do nothing? I don’t think so. As much as I’dove to be an isolationist and let the Continent sort out its own messes I just don’t see how we can do that in this day and age.

6. Europeans generally complain that Americans are too pervasive globally. While we don’t see that perspective here, everyone has a right to his/her opinion. As far as funds are concerned, I have no issue with providing humanitarian funds overseas in conjunction with other countries (or independently). Beyond that, I feel we should give Europeans what they’re asking for–less American interference.

7. >On the German and European side, I am hearing growing resentment against the US because it is maintaining a proxy war against Russia in order to satisfy the profits of its military industrial complex to the detriment of European companies and the livelihood of the EU citizenry (Poland excluded).

   Are these people under the impression that the US has the ability to force either Zelenskyy or Putin to call a truce, or are they under the impression the US is actively preventing that happening to make money? Both are equally absurd. If they are complaining that the US is aiding Ukraine while the war is going on, they are certainly the same type of people who would also jump on the “the US abandoned Ukraine and Europe” hate train if the US pulled its assistance like those people seem to say they want to see.

8. In response to your statement about a proxy war, you are eating out of the hands of Russian propaganda.

   Maybe you could tell us why the EU is complacent to let Russia bomb Ukraine out of existence and move their border right up against theirs.

   There’s very little resentment among Americans towards our contribution to Ukraine. The only ones that do resent it seem to be pro-Russian fascists or far left isolationists. Ukrainian solidarity is one of few things most Americans seem united on.

9. I think the Europeans are full of shit if they truly believe that.

   I also have to seriously wonder if you are a Russian troll. You’re using their template.

10. People don’t understand how budgeting works. If you don’t spend $$ on X, it can’t just simply be re-allocated to Y. It’ll have to go through the entire budget process again.

    I do think European countrie should be doing more, and some are starting to step up. But most seem to be lagging behind with no real plans on how to get to the 2% NATO asks for.

    But mostly this is Reddit talk and there’s little indication actual real leaders want the US to have less of a military presence in Europe. It benefits both the US and the host country in any number of ways. Sure there may be the occasional politician who makes some speech or whatever, but that’s just politics.

11. >On the German and European side, I am hearing growing resentment against the US because it is maintaining a proxy war against Russia in order to satisfy the profits of its military industrial complex to the detriment of European companies and the livelihood of the EU citizenry

    Insofar as any given European believes this, he is a colossal moron.

    For decades, we warned Europe – Germany in particular – about developing dependency on Russia for energy. When the Dark Lord Trump predicted this exact circumstance in front of the UN years ago, the Germans laughed at him (and by extension, us) openly. Now the bill comes due and it’s our fault for not betraying Ukraine – which these same dickheads would call our national disgrace if we actually did it.

    If we help Ukraine, it’s our fault European energy prices are so high. If we don’t help Ukraine, 5 years from now we’d be hearing about how we abandoned European allies and can’t be trusted. Almost like no matter what we do, we’re the bad guys. Certain Europeans are just like this and they can fuckstart a belt sander.

    We told them to meet their NATO obligations with funding sufficient to actually defend Europe and deter aggression. For the most part we were ignored – I’ve even had exceptionally stupid people argue that Germany’s contribution to NATO was *allowing us to have bases in Germany*. Now the bill comes due, the European cupboard is mostly bare and it’s incapable of or unwilling to sufficiently support Ukraine. After a flurry of promises to get their act together at the start of the war, the major western powers (apart from Britain) aren’t putting their money where their mouths were.

    I am annoyed that we keep having to pay for them, but there’s no way out of it. I’m doubly annoyed that so many of them know that and exploit it.

12. I used to be completely on board with helping Europe, but now i’m conflicted on it. Here’s why:

    During the last 15 years, I took a lot of time to travel to different countries. I wanted to see the world beyond the US borders. I went to England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, and France.

    While they were all fun trips, I received a very measurable amount of anti-american sentiment from various locals despite me being as nice as possible. I want to clarify immediately that it was a minority of people doing this. The VAST majority were very nice people and they loved that I embraced their food and traditions.

    However….bad experiences stick in your memory often times more than good ones. I can break down which countries had more or less(cough Germany), but I don’t feel it’s relevant for this post.

    Disclaimer: I love your beer Germans, and perhaps I just had poor luck, but please be nicer to us lol.

    I did notice that as Trump got into office and I took another couple trips, the sentiment got worse. It was almost as if we were being blamed for what our president says/does.

    Now in 2022 going into 2023, all of my collective personal experiences have me split. On one hand, I’m thinking of all those Mom & Pop shops I went to who put every bit of effort into a simple sandwich just to give a simple tourist like me a good lunch. I even met a few italian Chefs while I was in Lucca and they were such nice people.

    I also think about all the people I met who disliked me because of things I didn’t do nor can I change.

13. I’m pretty liberal and I definitely get the resentment that we are footing the bill for the defense of Europe. Ofc we do have a lot to gain from it so I’m not necessarily against it, kinda goes along with being the dominant power of the world and having a hegemony. I do find the Germans particularly infuriating in this regard with how low their military spending is, how critical they tend to be, while being the dominant eu economy.

    I haven’t heard of Germans getting mad at the us because we are maintaining a proxy war and frankly find the idea laughable and naive if they are. Wasn’t this war largely a result of Ukraine wanting to join the EU and nato and be closer with the west (including Western Europe not just the us).

    I’m guessing people criticizing us here fall into the america bad camp. If we weren’t supporting Ukraine so much they would probably also be complaining that we have military bases in Europe but don’t care about European defense. So Im more than happy to just ignore them because of their naivety.

14. I think the European project is kaput if Ukraine fails. Serbia is a lost cause, Hungary is a turd in the punch bowl, Poland is concerning. If Putin and his successors are able to halt and reverse the march of European democracy in Ukraine, I think the east and Mediterranean might fall like dominoes. I don’t pretend to be perfectly informed, just how it looks from over here. It doesn’t look like people believe in the project. I think the success of the European project is worth a good amount of money to the USA. If we get flourishing liberal democracies from the Atlantic to the Volga, that would be pretty great for the US and the whole world.

15. So, I definitely don’t think we should be footing the entire bill for Europe’s defense. I’d be more than happy to let the Europeans handle it themselves, however we all know once we stop funding Ukraine’s defense the Europeans will come out with “Those heartless Americans, just letting Russia invade Ukraine like that, think of the children!” You just can’t win when you’re at the top.

16. You’re telling me that continental Europeans want to appease a territory stealing dictator? I’m shocked!

17. Frankly I think Europeans are wonderful people. However, if they think we are supporting Ukraine to prop up our arms industry they are free to assume the burden of support themselves. Had America not supported Ukraine people would say America is absent or abandoned Europe. When we do support Europe, we’re accused of war profiteering. Can’t win.

    The simple fact is, supplying a country with weapons costs money and the people who make weapons are companies, so it’s rather naive to assume everyone will do this for free.

18. > I am hearing growing resentment against the US because it is maintaining a proxy war against Russia in order to satisfy the profits of its military industrial complex to the detriment of European companies and the livelihood of the EU citizenry (Poland excluded).

    This is the standard BS given by those who’s reason for being against American intervention is stupidity. And in this particular case, possibly fascistic alliance with Putin.

    This is not to say all opposition to U.S. intervention is idiotic, but when it is that’s the way to tell.

    What would these people rather? Europe spend billions to support Ukraine? Europe give Ukraine access to its weapon platforms and intelligence? If that’s the case, why haven’t they?

    Or would they rather Ukraine just roll over and let Putin erase them from existence? If *that’s* the case, they deserve a kick in the ass. And by kick I mean brick and by ass I mean face.

    > Conversely on the US side, I am hearing growing resentment, primarily from the right, that the US national debt is ballooning in order to pay for the defense of Europe.

    This *has* been a concern in previous years (especially during the Trump administration, one of the only positives he accomplished was annoying European nations enough to get them to meet NATO funding minimums.) However, in the context of an active unprovoked invasion, no rational person is making this argument (rational being the key word here, since Trump and some of his allies *are* making this argument.))

    > “luxuries” such as “free” social services to include 30 days vacation, maternity/paternity leave, public transportation infrastructure, free universities, universal healthcare, and all those things that Americans wish they had in more abundance

    First off there’s a lot of Americans who don’t ‘wish for this in abundance”. Secondly, again, those who do want this do make this argument; under *normal* circumstances. Unfortunately these are not normal circumstances. There *are* some who argue that this is good money after bad and that it wouldn’t be a problem, if we hadn’t already thrown billions into the ether for years prior. This is debatable but mostly countered by the unprovoked invasion.

    > How do you as an American feel about Europeans in the context of the current war in Ukraine?

    The same way I suspect the average real European feels about me – I don’t. There are more important things for me to care about than what some random person on the other side of the planet may or may not think.

    ^^~~At~~ ^^~~least~~ ^^~~that’s~~ ^^~~what~~ ^^~~my~~ ^^~~therapist~~ ^^~~says~~

19. If I was Zel, I wouldnt accept any truce until all my sovereign territory was returned, if Euros think thats asking too much, how much land would they accept being under control of a hostile power?

20. If this is true, which I’m having my doubts as I’ve seen a lot of support for US aid from Europeans. It would seem Europe has a lot of Chamberlain’s, you would think they learned something from the last big war.

21. We support Ukraine. That’s the focus. We realize that if Ukraine falls, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and other strong partners will be soon to followed. Opinions of partners are important, but they don’t change our main priority.

    We don’t really think about what the Germans think about our support for Ukraine, especially considering how bad and naive their foreign policy to Russia was under Merkel. Germans are going to be German.

    People complaining about the European military industrial complex suffering relative to the US again only have themselves to blame. They weren’t making minimal NATO spending commitments, which would have funded their businesses.

    I certainly don’t think anyone thought we should do this to increase US arms sales. Nobody had any idea that our systems would outperform Russians to this extreme, and could not have predicted a boom in arms sales.

    None of this is a new opinion.

    Any “resentment” on the right on spending is just politics to attack and weaken the president. Pelosi and Reid did the same thing in the 2000s.

22. There are people whose opinions, I believe, could be summed up as “So long as the US is wrong”.

    That we’re in a scenario where Russia invaded a neighbor, ‘accidentally’ launched missiles that land in NATO countries, and repeatedly threatens the use of nuclear weapons (ie, Putin’s new first-strike policy) and the United States are *still* considered the bad guy by some of our partners in peace tells you pretty much what I need to know about them.

23. Nothing that we will do will ever please Europeans. If we help a country, we’re accused of being the world police or imperialists. If we mind our own business, they’ll demand why the US isn’t doing anything.

    It’s gotten to the point where I’m just apathetic to what Europeans feel about us. For instance, in any thread suggesting that Russia is declared a terrorist country due to their action in Ukraine, 99.9% of the time there will be someone who will say, “Designate US a terrorist country.” that will have hundreds of upvotes. Even though we spend massive amount of time and money to protect them lol.

    Despite all of that, I’m still all in for supporting Ukraine in its time of need.

24. Honestly, pretty neutral. I like europe, and it’s nice how eager Eastern Europe has been to come to Ukraines aid, Germans being stupid is nothing new.

25. We didn’t cause the Russians to invade Ukraine. We aren’t “maintaining a proxy war,” we’re helping a country who got invaded per their request while trying to avoid a nuclear conflict. What the hell else were we supposed to do? Just let Ukraine fall?

26. > On the German and European side, I am hearing growing resentment against the US because it is maintaining a proxy war against Russia in order to satisfy the profits of its military industrial complex to the detriment of European companies and the livelihood of the EU citizenry (Poland excluded).

    I haven’t heard these sentiments but if they are widespread, that is a sad state of affairs. The US isn’t “maintaining” a war. Putin can pack his shit and go home any time he wants, we aren’t stopping him. As for Ukraine, they are on the defensive so the only way they could end the war sooner would be to capitulate to Putin and give away part of their country. If any Europeans want to reward aggression with gains, just for the sake of their economy… Well they can blow it out their ass.

    > Conversely on the US side, I am hearing growing resentment, primarily from the right, that the US national debt is ballooning in order to pay for the defense of Europe.

    Haha I’m sure Fox News has managed to rile some people up about the cost. For some perverse reason much of the right has a boner for Putin. Our expenses in the Ukraine barely move the needle. Aiding Ukraine barely moves the needle on our national spending. We can’t afford it, but we can’t afford to do a lot of shit we do, year in and year out, for much less compelling and worthy reasons.

27. If Europeans do not like us spending so much on Ukraine they are more than welcome to fill the void themselves.

    For once we did not start this war. It does not affect us whatsoever. We would be well within our right legally to walk away and not offer a cent more in aid. And if that means Ukraine falls then that sucks for them and for Europe.

    But we didn’t do that. We actually found a truly black and white good vs evil fight with conventional militaries, and we supported the good side, the side that was being attacked. If that means that weapons creators profit in order to secure the sovereignty of a nation then so be it. The only people who would be against that are the kind of communist losers (read: sOcIaL dEmOcRaCy durr durr durr) who hate it when anyone profits.

    But stepping up and paying for their own defense would mean paying for something themselves. Which Europeans despise.

28. We’re paying 20 times Germany and France combined.

    Western Europe are freeloaders and they should consider themselves grateful that once again America is getting involved in problems they created to save their asses. We tried warning them that their energy dependence on Russia would lead to this and they literally laughed at us.

    Because one day the American people will be tired of it and Western Europe will be in for a rude awakening when they actually have to defend themselves again.

29. The only time I’ve ever seen a source argue that Ukraine was an American proxy war to feed the MIC, it was Chinese propaganda. I suggest any Europeans believing such things check their sources. It would be like saying the war against the Nazis was just to feed the used shoe market. It’s taking something unambiguously good and contriving things into the worst light possible.

    There are *very* clear good and evil sides in this war, unlike most conflicts, and Americans love an underdog story. We won’t be going anywhere.

    Yes, we get annoyed that we’re footing the bill for Europe at times, but obviously the US has uncountable benefits from its hegemony, so I don’t personally mind too much.

30. Sorry, but how the fuck does US maintain a proxy war against Russian when we are literally talking about Ukraine fighting off an invading force?

31. I find myself wondering if the Europeans aren’t embarrassed by the whole thing. Zelensky leaves his country for the first time during the war and it’s not to any of the wealthy and powerful countries on his doorstep that he goes, but all the way across the ocean to the US to appeal for continued help? Don’t they feel a little abashed by that.?

32. I’m gonna be blunt. The people resenting the US because they think we just want to fight Russia sound like dickheads looking for an excuse to hate us.

    Like, seriously, did they just want us to let Russia win? Do they think we could just force Russiato surrender without risking Nuclear warfare?

    And we all know damn well if we stayed out of the conflict, the same people would criticize the USA for not helping.

33. Don’t really like Germany TBQH, they’re the ones who damaged Europe’s security so badly that Putin thought it would be a good idea to invade again. Still support NATO because it’s good but holy shit, fuck Germany so hard, they’re costing us a fortune and what they’ve done to Ukraine is disgusting. Unfortunately, it’s the price we must pay, because if we don’t, the bill will be higher later on. France keeps wanting to make an EU army and I fully support that, but it won’t happen until western Europe takes eastern Europe’s security concerns seriously. Only the UK does this currently, France is getting better but Macron is just a horrible statesman, he can’t do diplomacy for shit and eastern Europe wasn’t too happy with him trying to do diplomacy with Putin.

    ​

    I really don’t believe your assessment of European’s opinions, seems like most of them fully support defending Ukraine to me.

    ​

    Also why exclude Poland? Why do so many just ignore eastern Europe? I don’t get it, they are the ones who understand Russia the best, everyone should be paying attention to what the Baltics and Finland say about Russia.

34. Germany is getting fucked after deciding it was in their best interest to meet a large amount of their energy needs via natural gas from Russia, despite being warned. Germany was looking out for their own self interest.

    Now they get upset when the US looks out for what’s in the best interest of the US.

    Pot meet kettle.