On both sides of our family, my wife and I have various family members who are difficult to manage, and who routinely cross certain lines with us.
For example, certain close family members on my side want to visit often, but they often book trips without consulting us on the dates. Then, they expect us to be available and drop nearly everything on our schedules, including parenting and work obligations, in order to accommodate them during their stay. There are rarely any discussions about what we want to do when they are here, neither prior to their arrival nor during their stay. Then when they are here and there are inevitable conflicts (e.g. when we cannot actually entertain them the entire time), one family member in particular will make very dramatic remarks and issue guilt trips about how we must not love them, would we even come to their funeral if they died tomorrow, and so on. They will also do things such as adjust the thermostat by 5-10 degrees to their comfort and have a big fit if we turn it back (I might add the most recent time was when my wife was pregnant and struggling to sleep at night). Again, do we love them, what if they died, etc.
Another example would be certain close family members on my wife’s side, who will show up smelling like cigarettes even though there are very young children and asthmatics in the home; who are generally loud, ill-mannered, and dominate every conversation; who will drink too much and then want to hold and play with the children; whose attitudes tend towards negativity about life and other people; who routinely overshare about their love lives and relationship problems, particularly with me and when my wife is not present; and who generally do not ask questions about what is happening in our lives, or demonstrate any interest in what matters to us, even when prompted repeatedly in increasingly obvious ways.
I could provide more examples, but this is enough to provide the jist of the situation.
On the one hand, these people are family members who we love and we do care about maintaining our relationships with them. And it’s not all negative, either. We figure our family situation probably isn’t too much higher or lower than the average.
However, as parents of young children who both work we also have realistic limits to what we can tolerate. We only have so much time and emotional capacity to offer, especially when we receive little to nothing in return when they are here. We need to have a certain level of love and respect if these people are going to be in our home, family or not. There are also certain safety factors regarding our kids that are and will always be hard boundaries.
This has led us to the conclusion that we need to reduce the frequency of certain family members visiting us, even though we already know their reactions are going to be negative. Furthermore, we feel the need to shorten their stays, lay down some ground rules for when they are here, and have some discussions about what’s acceptable vs. not with certain family members. Personally, I also feel the need to set a hard boundary for the family member on my side who is always making dramatic remarks and issuing guilt trips to get their way; it feels emotionally manipulative and puts us both under extreme stress when it happens. And ideally, we would like to address the fact that if we are going to have relationships with these people, they need to care enough about us to show even a basic token interest in our lives.
So, what’s everyone’s advice on how to go about this effectively? Describe the individual issues to each person in detail, or focus more on communicating our boundaries and/or the desired outcomes? Talk to people individually on Zoom to keep it more personal, or send out a group email with everyone BCC’d to avoid people feeling singled out? And, what’s the best way to respond to people who we expect are going to respond negatively, dramatically, and in emotionally abusive ways when we communicate this to them – do we simply continue to repeat ourselves, ignore them, and/or eventually cut them off altogether? We expect this will happen with certain family members because we have tried to set boundaries in the past and encountered strong resistance, hurt feelings, and people wanting to engage in protracted negotiations about the matter that we simply don’t have time for at this stage of our lives.
On the one hand, we don’t want to be unnecessarily harsh. But on the other hand, we are tired of the ongoing disrespect and simply don’t have the energy to entertain it any longer, at least not in its current form. Hoping to find a way to communicate these things with a minimum of damage while still being able to hold our ground this time, and hopefully, avoid needing to go the nuclear route of totally cutting people off. I’m personally starting to feel that may be inevitable with certain people, but am wondering if maybe my judgment is compromised from the exhaustion of the whole thing.
16 comments
>For example, certain close family members on my side want to visit often, but they often book trips without consulting us on the dates.
I have an old college friend that does that. They live in the U.K., they will come to the U.S. for a week for multiple reasons, and they will not let me know until they are here. They will get upset if I don’t cancel plans/obligations to see them.
Your post is the first I have read of this happening to someone else.
I don’t have a solution to that problem.
You just have to have a polite and clear talk with your relatives, accepting that they will be upset.
*”Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days.”*
*– Benjamin Franklin*
I think almost everyone goes through this on some level at some point as adults, usually after kids enter the picture. My advice would be direct, firm and brief. You might also get more traction by tackling one issue at a time, say the unannounced visits first and the the thermostat next time it happens. You are right to prepare yourself for pushback. That will probably happen. Here’s what we told my MIL and later my parents about the pushback when we were going through this:
“You can cry and complain and blame everyone else and call us names all you want, but the fact of the matter is that if you are going to continue to behave the same way then you just aren’t going to see us very often.”
That nipped a lot of it in the bud. Stuff still comes up here and there but nothing like it was.
I come from an abusive family. I’m grateful that I learned early in life that “family” is no different than strangers. If I wouldn’t tolerate a stranger doing something, I certainly wouldn’t tolerate family doing it.
In fact, that’s the biggest indicator of abuse right there. The fact that you’re expecting *yourself* to fix there bad behavior, as opposed to expecting them to adapt their behavior to your home. A respectful guest/family member understands that they are a guest and alter their behavior to the environment.
Think about hotels. Are people allowed to check into hotels and walk around naked because “that’s what they do in their home.”?
No.
Set boundaries and enforce them. Especially when you have an obvious reason like kids or your wife being pregnant.
That’s my final point, your *immediate* family takes priority over your extended family.
“Hey, X relative, my kids don’t sleep well in X temperature and their growth is more important to me than your comfort. If you alter the thermostat you’re going to have to find another place to stay.”
Talk to them like the adults you all are. Set firm boundaries on what you expect with their visits. If they can’t follow your reasonable expectations, they have two options: (a) continue to be disappointed, or (b) stop visiting.
I haven’t had my coffee yet, but best advice is to state your boundaries then stick with them.
There’s a model for structuring statements for high emotional topics…I can’t remember what it’s called. Try googling “I” statements for now. I’ll try to remember the name. It’s something like action they do (FACTS) how it makes you feel. I’m going to try to get the name from a friend.
If someone can’t tell you when they will be there with proper notice, you can’t guarantee you will be available. They are a guest, not a dictator. Oh, you also get a say as to whether they are a guest 🙂
If someone can’t respect that you require air quality for children because of medical reasons, that’s a deal breaker for me. A non-starter. If they won’t comply, then you have to make a tough decision. Usually having a conversation can go a long way. Don’t jump to the tough decision, think about how to craft the conversation in a constructive way.
You have to be prepared for a bit of conflict. I watched Brene Brown’s HBO series and this popped up in my notes when I typed in “Boundaries:
3. Resentment
1. Experienced when we fail to set boundaries, ask for what we need, or when expectations let us down because they were based on things we can’t control, like what other people think, what they say, or how they react
I have no problem telling someone what to do, in my house, when protecting the health of children. Honestly most folks are so happy to be around kids, so they will comply. Most people are reasonable and understand they are YOUR kids and you get to decide what’s going on.
I have a book I need to read called, “Difficult Conversations” that I think would help.
Honestly, this shit is hard at any age, and any level of emotional intelligence. Good luck and let me know if you have anymore questions.
> And ideally, we would like to address the fact that if we are going to have relationships with these people, they need to care enough about us to show even a basic token interest in our lives.
I think you should really address the fact of **why you’d want** them in your life.
You want them to be better people, they won’t – so why deny it? Get it over with and move on. There are a lot of assholes in the world, you don’t have any obligation to put up with them.
Hiding behind a group text seems like you’re just trying to avoid sticking up for yourselves. Say what you need to say to who needs to hear it and be done. They’ll either respect you or you’re in the same place you’re already in except you don’t have to put up with the bullshit. Don’t allow your family to be a victim with a victim mindset, take control of your situations.
Contact the unannounced visitor now with a schedule for the year and have them to commit to when they’re going to visit. Tell them the kids are getting older and your family is busy. Offer to accommodate 3ish weekends of their choice but tell them now you aren’t available without notice.
>For example, certain close family members on my side want to visit often, but they often book trips without consulting us on the dates.
My mom would do this after I first moved out. This is a little different because she only lived 20 minutes away, but the only thing that would stop her is when I stopped answering the door. She’d pop over and I’d tell her I didn’t like it. One day I had to just not answer and leave her out there. Told her I was out and if she would have talked to me first I could have told her.
The point is at some point you have to just stand your ground. Like bullies, people only act like this because they’ve been conditioned that it works. If you condition them that it won’t and stand your ground on the things that are actually important to you (and not just mildly irritating), the actions will stop. Or, if they’re insufferable pricks, they’ll stop coming over.
I’ve had to go through (and am still in the process of) setting boundaries with parents. The main thing is to be clear and stand by your boundaries. “I told you that if you show up unannounced we may not be able to spend time with you. If you had given us a heads up we could have worked somethig out.” When they try to guilt trip you “this is not an appropriate way to react to us establishing reasonable boundaries with you. Showing up unannounced and expecting us to simply be free is inconsiderate behavior.”
Don’t try for reasoning, when this happens you are not engaging with adult behavior, but instead a temper tantrum. When a child throws a tantrum, you don’t act cruely towards them, but you still act firm and clear and if they want to keep throwing the tantrum, that’s their problem.
I also recommend therapy as a way to gameplan all this btw. It’s been massively beneficial to me.
I will over simplify a little:
1. Your life, your family, your home, your rules. You respect their home when you’re there, they MUST do the same for you or they are unwelcomed, simple as that.
2. Its NOT your fault they made plans without consulting you and your wife. THEY will pay for their consequences and poor planning decisions.
3. We can’t always choose our family, but we CAN choose (usually) how much of our lives we share with them. It’s amazing your family on both sides want to be apart of you and your children’s lives. But just as it was when you were a kid, you must respect the home you’re invited to stay in. Can’t follow the rules? Not allowed in your home.
I’m fortunate to only have one person in my family that likes to muck the fun and love of events. Want to know what happened? People stopped engaging with him and now he generally sits around and tries to chime in on conversations and is then promptly ignored. He’s been talked to about his attitude for almost 30 years now and its just not going to change until he dies at this point. I’ve stood up for him on too many occasions only to be immediately proven wrong the next convo. I’m one of the few people who give him 5 minutes each easter, christmas, etc. I digress. OP, you have expressed detailed insight and I think you know in your heart how you’d like to set certain boundaries and I think you should.
My parents once said: “We had to make our own decisions with you and your sibling and how we were going to raise you, regardless of what our parents think. We expect you both to do the same when you grow up.”
GF and I only have a dog, but wow does that one change in routine send a ripple through family planning.
I think you’ll make the best decision OP.
Are these the Griswolds?
I would very quickly adopt a ‘you stay at a hotel’ policy and rent a car, especially if they show up randomly.
Is there any good reason you can’t address these things when they happen?
“Don’t adjust the thermostat. We like it right where it is.”
“We can’t go out tonight because you didn’t give us any notice beforehand. We already have plans. There’s a nice place down the street, though, if you all want to get something. Try the veal.”
“No smoking around the house, we have health issues and/or don’t like the smell.”
These are not rude things to say. Be up front about it and don’t leave it open to discussion or interpretation.
Personally, I wouldn’t send out a big group email. Every time I’ve seen someone send out a group email to address their own personal problems as if it’s this big event everyone else should be interested in, they’re really just drama queens looking for attention.
“We would love to see you, but we are busy at xxx time/date. We will be unable to attend xxx/have you over/insert whatever other thing they want here. If you would like, we can plan something for xxx date/time (and pick something that works for you)” Then stick to it. You’re letting them steamroll you, and they will continue to do so until YOU change.
If they want to run their mouth, and woes is me, let them. People already know those people are the way they are. There is no reason to waste your energy arguing with crazy. The best way to deal with this is to reply in no uncertain terms, and don’t elaborate. “you wouldn’t come to my funeral if I died tomorrow” “well that’s a weird thing to say” “why can’t I hold little susie?” “it’s not a good time” “but why not” “as I said, it’s not a good time” “bbuuuuut whhhyyyyyyyyy” “I said no” If they persists, leave/kick them out.
Also, stop letting people stay with you, or come to your house if you they can’t respect your boundaries. I’m sure there will be some tantrums, but you need to stand firm here.
Would you keep putting up with strangers, or a new friend that did these things to you? If the answer is no, then you need to rethink your relationships with these people.
> For example, certain close family members on my side want to visit often, but they often book trips without consulting us on the dates. Then, they expect us to be available and drop nearly everything on our schedules, including parenting and work obligations, in order to accommodate them during their stay.
no
100% unacceptable.
> one family member in particular will make very dramatic remarks and issue guilt trips about how we must not love them, would we even come to their funeral if they died tomorrow, and so on.
no
100% unacceptable
> They will also do things such as adjust the thermostat by 5-10 degrees to their comfort and have a big fit if we turn it back (I might add the most recent time was when my wife was pregnant and struggling to sleep at night).
holy shit
no
100% unacceptable
OP – whoever *that individual* is – should be blacklisted from ever entering your home. That’s just insane. You are a grownup with limited time and energy and someone like *that* does not belong anywhere near your life, much less in your house!
> we receive little to nothing in return when they are here.
I mean you’re telling it like it is. What is the ROI here? Do you owe these people money? Are they really good at watching children? (I would not trust the thermostat-changing gulit-tripping figure anywhere near children, they sound selfish and unstable.)
> This has led us to the conclusion that we need to reduce the frequency of certain family members visiting us, even though we already know their reactions are going to be negative.
This is correct, and those certain family members can go pound sand.
A lot of what you wrote made me think I was reading this in r/raisedbynarcissists – so just commenting to suggest you take a look at that sub as it discusses a LOT of similar behavior.