I grew up and was educated in the US state of Oregon – and recently I’ve been looking about what’s considered normal in English schools – both primary and secondary. And it seems like plenty of things common in English schools would alienate schools here in Oregon (and much of the US in particular) – whole group reading, learning multiplication at a early age, swimming lessons in PE, etc.

To begin, why does it feel like that large class sizes of over 30 children are praised and supported by the DfE while the pupil numbers only keep getting bigger and bigger? (Usually it’s just 30 children per class, and class sizes were also large where I grew up. My 5th grade/Year 6 class had 28 of us, and the largest class in our school that had 31). I mean, there’s a primary academy in Devon with a Year 6 classroom of a whopping 63 children and the teachers and parents don’t have a problem with it! And what about the several overcrowded primary schools in East London that have over 1000 pupils and rated “outstanding” by Ofsted? It must be really overwhelming for the teachers.

Here in Oregon, class sizes are getting much smaller now to focus more on the individual needs of the child – and it does remind me of an article or two about how teachers in England wish that could happen too – to focus on the child’s individual strengths and weaknesses, not preparing the child for exams (something which is too focused on I hear). Basically it’s “small is all” while over in England it’s “pile ‘em up.” What’s more ironic, schools with REALLY large pupil numbers and class sizes get rated “Oustanding” by Ofsted, which practically promotes families to send their children in swarms to these schools because of how good the rating is (I’m looking at you, London) That would only make the rating low if this happened in the US.

Guess the DfE prefers overcrowded schools just to prepare children for exams and not building new ones to even things out and focus on the child’s development.

Second, I understand the need for a uniform as it’s smart and brings children together into a school environment, but I often things some things are outdated when it comes to uniform. Many primary schools won’t let children bring in their own school bags (or at least EYFS and KS1 children) and insist on using school-branded book bags because “tHEre iS nO SpACe” thus the children have to carry everything separately. While I understand many schools were built in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, back when schoolchildren brought in way much less than now, don’t you think seeing the child carry their lunch bag, water bottle, book bag, and on Friday afternoons and Monday mornings, their PE kit separately and struggle? And what about carrying everything when biking/scooting to school? IMO a backpack would make things much easier especially when walking/biking/scooting so it makes things hands-free and not affect the child’s spine as much. Plus, the book bag has a pretty outdated design, as if primary schools are still stuck in the 50s.

In many primary schools, I hear they use a compromise method: school-branded book bags from Nursery to Yr 2, backpacks from Yr 3 to 6 (oftentimes a school-branded one). Other schools just insist on the book bag. So basically many children can’t show a little creativity in bringing in a bag of their choice. No other country brags about this: even in neighbouring Ireland the children carry everything in a backpack. Like seriously, what’s more important? The aesthetic of the school or the child’s health?

If I had a child, I would most likely have her carrying her books and other belongings in a rucksack of her choice, giving her a little expression while wearing school uniform and help keeping her posture. Simple.

Third, what about raising your hand? I seem to notice that it’s a mixed bag of having the whole hand up and just raising the index finger. But I also seem to think more children use the index finger method. In Oregon almost all of us raise our whole hand when we want to ask something. I’ve recently been doing that myself actually. But I rather need a honest answer.

Finally, why does it seem like everything the school system has to do is with exams? The children are at school to learn and discover new things, not to memorize and study for some testing. Like I’m sure the stress begins in many 10-11 year olds with their KS2 assessments, and gradually gets worse with their GCSEs in KS4. I even hear they’re making the GCSEs even harder, making it much more worse for many teens across the country!

Even the setup of these GCSEs and A-levels give me anxiety. Endless rows of desks and chairs. Hundreds of exhausted teens. I don’t hear that experience when asking fellow Americans about their school experience. Thankfully I hear they don’t do that in primary school. (Though I can’t imagine what it’s like in overcrowded primary schools like Barclay in Waltham Forest…)

Basically why is everything in English schools is a “pile ‘em up” approach (I’m looking at you once again, London)? Why do lessons have to be so BIG (aside from assemblies)? And what about the reason they decided to grab over 800 pupils for a science lesson at a London secondary school to earn some world record?

Is it just me?

12 comments

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  2. This is a lot….. but in answer to your question about why do some schools have a lot of kids: because there are a lot of kids in the local area. London is massively built up, the majority of schools are state funded, there isn’t necessarily the space to build more schools or the money to do so. So the existing schools have to grow to accommodate more classes of kids to serve the local community. We have bulge years where there are extra classes in a year. It doesn’t work for some kids and not all schools have high numbers of classes.

    It’s lovely that the whole of Oregon doesn’t have high population density and has plenty of school space, but this surely isn’t applicable to the whole of the US let alone a different country.

  3. Classes also have teaching assistants. My 5 year old niece has 22 kids in her class, with 1 teacher and two TAs. It’s the second best primary in the county so we are lucky though

    I think it’s good practice to get kids to carry their own stuff. Otherwise they just default to handing their things to their mother when they can’t be bothered to carry them (I did this til I was a teenager). They aren’t heavy.

    So weird questions here… they put their hands straight up.

    The pile em high approach is because the government waste our taxes and think they can get by by just doing more with less.

  4. There’s so many nuances that you simply won’t appreciate from reading stuff online. I think you’re overestimating any educational ideology the DfE has, and underestimating the importance of limited money and resources.

    > don’t you think seeing the child carry their lunch bag, water bottle, book bag, and on Friday afternoons and Monday mornings, their PE kit separately and struggle?

    Again, this is the sort of false impression you can get from only reading about something online. If i remember correctly, we often just left PE kit and water bottles at school permanently. Also lots of children have school dinners. It’s also pretty common for children to either get driven to school or walk with their parents, who might carry their stuff for them.

    This really isn’t a problem for 99.9% of children and parents in the UK, I have no idea why someone halfway across the world is getting so wound up about it lol. There is no epidemic of English primary school kids struggling under the weight of everything they need to bring in.

    > and not affect the child’s spine as much

    You’re really overestimating how much a book bag typically weighs.

    > Third, what about raising your hand? I seem to notice that it’s a mixed bag of having the whole hand up and just raising the index finger

    Can’t speak for everyone but there is no ‘rule’ about the correct way to raise your hand. You just… raise your hand.

    > Finally, why does it seem like everything the school system has to do is with exams?

    Because exams are what set you up for future progression in life. I’m not here to have a debate about whether that’s a good/bad thing or not, it’s just the truth of the matter.

  5. There’s alot to unpack here but I will put my two cents in as an ex teacher.

    Class sizes and staffing will depend on the year groups involved and the needs of the children in the class. Its not uncommon to have 30 kids to one teacher in high school, even though some schools are getting better at having additional learning support. Whereas, in an early years classroom (in school is ages 3-5) I had up to three TAs at one time. Budgets are tight though so even with additional funds for kids with additional needs it can be hard to get extra adults in the classroom.

    The area which the school is in will depend on how many kids are there. London is densely populated so there are going to be alot of kids needing schooling. I live in the west Midlands and I know from my current job there are several secondary schools reaching 1000 pupils easily.

    Water bottles/PE kits generally stay in school until they are needed at a primary level. When I was teaching I would clean the bottles myself and always sent uniform home on a Friday. Lots of kids are driven to school or walk with parents so its generally not an issue bringing equipment back and forth.

    Also I think its kind of a misnomer to assume the DfE have any fixed ideology on education and schooling, and this goes right through to the higher education system too. Its too closely tied to whatever is going on politically rather than what is best educationally for the children and what pedagogy is best. I will concede that this is just my opinion on this based from my experience in schools and what I do now within higher education.

  8. You’ve chosen to give yourself anxiety about some obscure issue based on stuff you’ve read online, thousands of miles from home, that you’ll realistically never have to experience or deal with.

    Yes, I think it’s probably just you.

  9. “would alienate schools here in Oregon” …. “learning multiplication at a early age”

    … because teachers and other learning professionals have concluded that learning at a later age results in poorer performance?

  12. Hey~ it’s great to be interested in other countries, but try asking politely. Perhaps you didn’t mean it, but this comes across as quite rude & ill informed. You’re focusing on negatives and a few extreme examples, rather than seeing the larger picture and the many positives here. Try being more neutral~ eg “how/ why does x work? do you think it should change?” You’ve assumed things, then said they’re awful.

    You’ve also overlooked some glaring defects in the US school system, which we don’t have here at all.

    The way *anyone* grows up seems normal to them, whether it’s a family or a country. So learning to swim at primary school is fine. It’s important kids learn because we’re an island, with lots of rivers & canals. Consequently the UK has a lower rate of child drownings than the US. Learning multiplication tables? I’m numerically dyslexic & have ADHD, so managed, but have mostly forgotten them since. It’s not a big deal. *I’d* have anxiety doing maths (trig, math, algebra etc) or sports through til 18- here we can drop them at 16, so I’m thankful I didn’t go to school in the US.

    >why does it feel like that large class sizes of over 30 children are praised and supported by the DfE while the pupil numbers only keep getting bigger and bigger? (Usually it’s just 30 children per class,

    That’s incorrect. The average class size is 24- in the US its 27. That school is an extreme outlier; that’s only allowed because it’s an academy(similar to a charter school), so can set its own rules on many things. But it’s rated outstanding, & the class in question has two teachers & two teaching assistants, a reasonable staff-pupil ratio. Its also well funded~ giving £750 (about $950) laptops to each kid. The classroom’s purpose built, & tiered like some university lecture halls, so each pupil has a clear view of the teacher + board. OFSTED’s independent of the DfE, so if they felt this was bad for the kids, or standards were poor, they’d say so. The DfE doesn’t push any agenda, the UK doesn’t work that way.

    Secondly, you’ve misunderstood what a “focus on exams” in primary schools means. Primary schools (for 5-11 year olds) don’t have annual exams (or even pop quizzes), but there are SAT tests (tho they’re different from the SATS you take in US HSs). They’re just standardised tests, only taken in year 2 & year 6, to gauge the proficiency of education in that school & compare it nationally. It also gives parents an idea of how well their kid’s performing. I don’t think its great, but it’s not the end of the world either. “Focusing” just means teachers have to keep an eye on a national syllabus more than they used to. Kids here are at a higher level than their peers in the US, so it clearly works.

    >which practically promotes families to send their children in swarms to these schools because of how good the rating is (I’m looking at you, London)

    This is expressed offensively; “promotes” sounds like propaganda is being used, or someone is pushing an agenda, and “swarms”, a word usually used to describe insects- so not a nice way to speak about people. You’re not understanding what happened either. The DfE doesnt promote anything- that’s an American idea, esp re the culture wars at play in your education system. London experienced massive population growth- 7.1mil in 2000, 9 mil in 2020, so schools rapidly overfilled. There wasn’t the room or time to build new schools everywhere, so existing ones had to expand. But you’re forgetting that secondary schools here run for 7 years, for 11-18 years olds, rather than just 4 years like American high schools. A school isn’t good or bad because of its size, nor does the DfE “promote” that. Kids usually go to the nearest school, & its hard or impossible to send them to one outside your area. If the school nearest was rated outstanding and large, would you prefer a smaller one rated adequate, further away?

    Which schools do you think are especially large? The largest schools in the UK are exceptional at around 2,500 pupils for 11-18 year olds. The US has countless high schools over 6,000, just for 14-18 yr olds; the largest HS in Oregon is 4,711.

    >Guess the DfE prefers overcrowded schools just to prepare children for exams and not building new ones to even things out and focus on the child’s development.

    No, & that’s unfounded & offensive again. Saying the UK, or the DfE doesn’t care about child development is wrong, esp given the US education system is ranked far below us- our kids are happier & safer here, too.

    >Like seriously, what’s more important? The aesthetic of the school or the child’s health?

    Can you see how offensive this is? You’re saying we don’t care about child health, only appearances. Consider this; the US has *no* universal healthcare (not even for children!), allows more than [1000 chemicals in foods & toiletries which’re illegal here](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/well/eat/food-additives-banned-europe-united-states.html), including ones found to cause cancer, has no paid maternity or paternity leave, no free child care, long working hours, no paid leave etc etc. None of that applies to the UK; we care about children by protecting them & supporting them & their families, everything from free childcare, universal healthcare, a minimum of 4 wks paid leave, all under 19s get free period products, there’s even 2 weeks paid bereavement leave if you lose a child under 18, inc a still birth. We also have legal protections about housing children, so if a family becomes homeless they’re housed- it’s often imperfect, but they’re not left living in a car or a tent. Stories like [Liz Murray](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Murray) are not inspirational, just abhorrent. That’d never happen here, but she’s not unique in the US. Don’t just focus on one thing you don’t like (bags)- see the whole picture: healthcare, paid leave, paid sick leave, housing, food etc then consider which benefits kids more.

    >Finally, why does it seem like everything the school system has to do is with exams?

    I think the opposite’s true. The US system focuses on skim learning facts in order to pass regular pop quizzes and maintain a GPA (neither is a thing here), rather than in depth learning as we do. American teachers are [highly critical of the US system](https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/winter-2018/teachers-perspective-whats-wrong-our-schools); teachers here appreciate being able to teach subjects in depth, with a focus on independent thinking & critical analysis. The world rankings of education consistently place the UK [well above the US](https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-mathematics-science-reading/); the UK was 13th last year, US was 25th. The academic level of a GED is about equivalent to GCSE, sometimes lower, APs are below A level standards. GCSEs (exams taken at 16) *have* become easier over time, as verified independently. So making them harder is just restoring them to previous higher standards. [This](https://www.youtube.com/@evan/videos) American YouTubers lives here, does a lot of UK v US topics, inc schools and exams.

    Finally, a few facts about *US* schools you’ve overlooked!…

    US science education is poor: the [Ig Nobel Prize](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize) is awarded to unusual scientific achievements which “makes you smile, then think”. One was awarded to Kansas & Colorado “for mandating that children should not believe in Darwin’s theory of evolution any more than they believe in Newton’s theory of gravitation, Faraday’s and Maxwell’s theory of electromagnetism, or Pasteur’s theory that germs cause disease.” Meanwhile in the UK… popular kids tv show’s [comedy sketch about Darwin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAHvyURiCqY). We teach science *very* well.

    US sex ed often teaches abstinence, not contraception and relationships, as [we do](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1090195/Relationships_Education_RSE_and_Health_Education.pdf).

    The US education system is heavily politicised – CRT, LGBT books, creationism, sex ed, even proposals that some kids get their genitals checked by a Dr or sports coach to determine their gender- Florida, NJ, Ohio etc. Not a thing here.

    Gun crime’s impossible to overlook; 2022 was the [worst ever year for school shootings in the US](https://www.k12dive.com/news/2022-worst-year-for-school-shootings/639313/). We’ve had *one* school shooting ever, so don’t have active shooter drills, “hardened architecture”, metal detectors, or locked school gates etc. Your gun laws give American students, teachers & parents anxiety.

    Anyway, if youre interested…
    docu-series shot in different schools, called “Educating (somewhere)”; here’s [an episode](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bak3k_efBs), a comedy drama about a [university house share](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsDnApqgREw); the first series’s excellent.

    If you’d like to visit or live in the UK, look into doing a study abroad semester, or masters. It can even be [cheaper than studying in the US](https://www.tiktok.com/@lindylenix/video/6854952858341739781)- BAs are 3 yrs, MAs are 1 yr. These guys offer [excellent free info](https://us.studyacrossthepond.com). Single room (often with own bathroom), small lecture classes, one-one tutorials, no pop quizzes, independent study, universal healthcare, walkable cities, strict gun control, you can work part time. Take care 🙂

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