ok, I’m not sure it’s the right place to post this but I figure since we’re all married and it concerns marriage… here goes:
My wife and I were having dinner with 3 other couples (2 married and 1 just BF/GF) and you know, once dinner was over, ladies stayed for sweets and wine while we guys went in the garden for a cigar and an after dinner liqueur.
so 3 married guys and 1 non married, and well you guessed it, the topic of marriage came up and the single guy asked us to give him 1 advantage of getting married vs staying single. He was seriously asking because he could not understand the advantage of getting married vs staying living with his GF.
All our attempts (proof of love, lifetime commitment, sense of belonging together, security…) were rebuffed. He doesn’t understand why we would need to let the government into our love lives.
His points: what was a lifetime commitment isn’t anymore as divorce rates are more and more frequent, earlier in the marriage and mostly triggered by women. 50% asset loss, pre-nups starting to be rejected in some courts (this was new to me as I always assumed it was a rock solid legally binding document), alimony, child support…
This guy would not be talked into it, saying his love life was his and his partner’s business, no need any legal entities meddling.
We called the ladies up and added them to the discussion (once the younger couple left) and they all agreed he’s delusional and his GF will be expecting a ring in the near future.
We were a little taken aback and uncomfortable (ok, we’re all in our 40’s and this guy is in his late 20’s) so I guess my question is, what are we missing? what did we forget in our argument to lead this guy to consider marriage as the beautiful testament of love and commitment we believe it is?
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I’m curious if everyone is starting to think like this guy?
28 comments
> is there a real Advantage of being married?
Protection for wife and child.
I do think it is a generational thing. I know more younger people that have a “life partner” and have no desire to marry. It ultimately is a legal and religious institution. I am a woman in my 40s and I think we like the idea of someone committing to us at that level.
Knowing what I know now and not being a religious person, I don’t know if I would ever marry again if something happened to my marriage.
Heck, I see more and more younger women are choosing to not have serious long term relationships with men because they can do things on their own and are more independent. 🤷🏻♀️
Married 15 years here. Mostly happily. Your friend is not wrong.
If two people love each other then giving each other all the possible security and assurances are obvious.
That’s why.
Marriage is a social and legal assurance given to our spouses.
Modern marriage is in decline especially in the US rising divorce rates doesn’t paint a positive picture.
Legal reasons can be strong. Being in his 20s, he probably thinks he’s invulnerable and his GF too. If one of them is hospitalized with a serious life-threatening condition, he’s not considered next-of-kin and has little standing for decision making or even proximity.
If you see the ceremony as a covenant between you and God and you and all of your family, then how can that be meaningless?
Ok setting aside the religious view: it is still between you and your family and friends, it is a public declaration of your love and commitment. You can’t do that if you aren’t sure and aren’t willing to trust. You are asking them to take time out of their lives to witness and celebrate this. I see it as a milestone. But also as anything you take time to publicly declare (graduations, births, deaths, big moments) and it mentally and emotionally matures both. Sure you can keep your private life private but celebrating and allowing people in is what makes life life. Are they opposed to funerals? Birthday parties? Reunions? My guess is not.
What are we without milestones in our lifetime? What will you look back on and regret?
And there are no rules for how you do a wedding or reception. They could literally do a commitment ceremony minus the legal aspect, and it could still be a wedding. They could do the reverse. A lot of people are happy also sharing the same last name because it makes it obvious to everyone that they are one family unit. So having that requires legal intervention.
Hope this helps your friend and his gf! His gf is most likely to get hurt if he doesn’t realize this stuff at some point.
“Letting the government into our love lives” is a pretty dramatic way of saying “establishing ourselves legally as a family.” Married partners are each other’s next of kin (useful for medical crises and also inheritance if one of them dies suddenly). Marriage also establishes community property; your friend may call that “50% asset loss” but among people who understand the concept of teamwork it’s called “fair division of assets.” If you split up, you should share what you built together. There are, all in all, over a hundred legal rights spouses have that unmarried partners do not. You could spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer to help you replicate *most* of them, but even then you couldn’t get them all.
And as for splitting up: the ability to divorce without legal justification or your partner’s consent may increase the rate of divorce, but it’s actually more of an argument *for* marriage than against. Marriage is a big commitment. The ability to end it if you need (or want) to is a *good* thing, since none of us can see the future and be totally sure we’ll want to be with our spouse forever. Decades stuck in an uhappy marriage you literally cannot end sounds like a much better reason not to marry than the possibility that your spouse might someday want to end the marriage, and have the power to do so. Making divorce accessible to anyone makes it safer to pursue the, again, hundred+ legal rights and benefits conferred by marriage.
I have been married for almost 26 years and my marriage is the most important thing in my life. It defines my love for my wife and my commitment to her.
My husband and I are in our late 20s. We’re literally only married because I wanted him to be my next of kin in emergencies, and vice versa. We are best friends, been together for so long, know each other better than our parents do….we want to be the ones in charge of care if the other is incapacitated for some reason. Especially for the purpose of bearing children. There is a massive influx of women being forced into C-Sections they don’t want because labor is progressing too slowly, and then of course with all this “save the fetus” bullshit happening in the US, I need him to be there to fight for MY life vs the baby’s if it came to that.
So yeah, marriage is beneficial for these legal reasons but if that wasn’t the case, we probably wouldn’t have done it because we really don’t need a big party and piece of paper saying we love each other, we knew that already.
Not hate to those who got married for reasons other than legality! Especially same sex couples who have waited so long for the right to do so (and are now at risk of losing it AGAIN ugh) this is just how my husband and I feel about it.
Well, your friend is talking about the government so that’s what you should talk about too, he is looking at the very contractual and practical side, nothing symbolic.
You’re dependent on the government, they know who you are, your numbers, your story, you are in the grid.
If you’re not married to your partner then they’re not your relative or your family, your spouse is legally your first relative. You can find some ways to get around it in some situations, but it’s much harder and the laws change from state to state and even more from country to country. When you’re family, you’re family.
So yes, marriage is a safety for you as a couple in our system because the government actually recognize you as relatives.
But if his argument is that he worries about divorce and even more about his girl initiating one and profiting of his finances then he shouldn’t get married because it means that he doesn’t trust her enough to get to that level of commitment.
I don’t know if I am the right person to answer your question, because I’m not a big proponent of marriage as a *culture.* I think it’s nice for those individuals who want it/like it, and not for those who don’t, and I don’t think anyone who doesn’t see the point of it should feel obligated to participate in it. If your friend doesn’t want the government in his relationship, that’s fine. If he thinks that the risks of marriage outweigh the rewards, that’s fine. Marriage is neither inherently “good” or “bad”, it’s just ONE option for couples who feel moved to take advantage of it, for whatever reason (legal, financial, social, religious, etc.). If someone doesn’t see the use of it, that doesn’t take anything away from me just because I choose to make use of it.
Not all women expect “rings” (I assume you mean marriage) from their partners. People in general have individual expectations, and if they are mature adults, they will discuss those with their partners before they decide to commit to them. I may not agree with your friend’s reasons for not wanting to get married (the statistics he’s concerned with don’t strike me as sound or relevant, plus I’m an old-fashioned liberal and so long as I am not *required* to get married or give up my basic rights upon doing it, I don’t care whether the government is involved), but I don’t think he’s “delusional”, nor do I think he’s leading some kind of Gen Z anti-marriage revolution. I think he’s figuring out what’s right for him. The real question is, what do his choices have to do with you guys?
> His points: what was a lifetime commitment isn’t anymore as divorce rates are more and more frequent, earlier in the marriage and **mostly triggered by women. 50% asset loss, pre-nups starting to be rejected in some courts (this was new to me as I always assumed it was a rock solid legally binding document), alimony, child support**…
Bolding these portions for emphasis. These are often red pill talking points used to paint women in a negative light in regards to marriage. The, “They’ll take all your money in the divorce and you’re left with nothing!” crowd uses them as an excuse of why marriage is bad. It may not have been apparent at the time, but the young fella there may have some other questionable beliefs.
You know, that’s what happens when the guys go out for after dinner cigars and liqueur, as you do
I think the problem is they have no issue acting married already. If you’re living like your married without the legal paperwork, then there isn’t much incentive to do so
Not living together before marriage, not having sex before marriage, are pretty big incentives to be married
>divorce rates are more and more frequen
Divorce rates recently hit a 50yr low
>mostly triggered by women
So?
Cohabitating unmarried partners do lack the gender bias in who initiates the end of the relationship, but these relationships end at a much higher rate (1.2% vs. 9.4%). Doing the math .83% of married women initiate divorce per year compared to 4.7% of cohabitating women endingtheir relationships.
That is almost a 600% difference, favoring marriage.
>50% asset loss… alimony
Marry someone with a similar level of success and ambition, problem solved.
>child support
This has nothing to do with marriage. If you are not the custodial parent you are going to have to provide support. My son was the product of a one night stand.
What does have to do with marriage is the custodial rights that come along with it. This often leads to more equal parenting time, which means lower or even no child support. My situation as an ex
There arw also all the other rights that most people know about; power of attorney, survivorship rights, etc.
Could a lot of these legal protections be accomplished without marriage? Sure, but what would those fees look like? A hell of a lot more then a marriage license, 10′ of thousands vs 10’s of dollars makes marriage sound pretty reasonable.
>We called the ladies up and added them to the discussion (once the younger couple left) and they all agreed he’s delusional
He isn’t delusional, ALL of you are just poorly informed.
I don’t think me and my partner will get married. Buying a house together and have been together 4 years. We just don’t really see the point or have some burning desire. He never wanted to get married and I realised I wasn’t fussed either way. As long as we’re together I don’t really care. People can break up either way, it’s just a hell of a lot messier if you’re married and there doesn’t seem to be any massive up sides where I go “we have to get married”
EDIT- don’t get me wrong if you want to get married then that’s amazing. My parents have been married 30 years and I love that. I just don’t think it’s necessary in this day and age
We were together for 11 years before getting married. We were fine with being in a committed partnership until we decided to have a child. We wanted a more formal, legal arrangement to protect our child’s future security.
I definitely do not think it’s currently worth it. Coming from a dude’s point of view. If my partner cheats and I divorce her for it she is going to take half my shit. That is not something I want to risk.
I think the benefits to getting married have greatly diminished over the years. You can have sex, relationships and children without marriage, with far less stigma. I think the marriage rates will continue to decline. But I think there are still advantages, see the wiki.
He sounds childish n I’m in my 20s
Yeah I’m in my 20s I used to think this way, but if his child’s mother dies. Depending on state. The siblings and parents are entitled to her home, money, and life insurance or can take him to probate court to be assigned as PR so they can take over. I have seen it done and helped do this. It’s a nasty world. Source: I work as consultant for a law firm, paralegal, also have a masters in legal studies.
Ima be honest, I’m on the younger side and don’t want to ever get married, I can have a wedding and ceremony but never marriage because women break of marrieges and a 80% of the time and I don’t want to lose all my assets and parents assets in the process
As a divorced woman I can say this: Young girls dream about having wedding before even having their first period, not knowing about relationship, not even having a first kiss.
How much of you ladies had this “dream” since childhood before even being in love? Not having anyone in mind to marry, but already wanting to get married. White dress, flower petals thrown by kids, church, big doors, long hallway, carpet.
That’s just a dream, like a thing in bucket list “get married”. It’s some sort of a brainwash.
You see most divorces are initiated by women, because they got married to get married. Box in “Get married, have wedding” was checked.
Like movies dictate what is romantic. And it affects mostly women. Seeing some scene of a guy and girl dancing in rain and kissing. If it was never seen on a screen with romantic background music and cozy filter – noone would ever consider it romantic.
Next of kin, insurance, protecting future children, medical decisions such as DNRs
It depends:
Would you LIKE having a loyal best friend who supports you 110%, thinks of you 24/7, but also calls you out on your bullsh*t?
Someone who tolerates you enough to carry your child for 9 months, plus 3+ years of sleepless nights and gruesome days of “vrooom, heeere comes the airplane, say aaaah!”
A whole person who is all yours, and who you belong to fully?
>It’s not a lifetime commitment
Well, that depends on him and his partner…
>50% asset loss
It would only be a 50% asset loss if he considered all martial property his, if that’s the case, why is he marrying someone who doesn’t financially contribute to the household… Don’t marry someone if you don’t think they contribute to your life. Don’t marry a trophy wife, problem solved.
>pre-nups starting to be rejected in some courts (this was new to me as I always assumed it was a rock solid legally binding document),
Poorly written contacts get rejected. Everyone has a prenup, you just get the basic legal one by default
>alimony
Again, don’t marry a trophy wife… Alimony is pretty rare, and it crops up mostly in long term relationships. Typically there is a division of household labor where the wife is contributing to her partners lifestyle, that’s not worthless despite how people want to view it. You have to put on your adult pants and make sure the person you’re marrying actively adds value to your life, if you can’t do that then it shouldn’t be surprising that you’re making a poor choice of partner.
>child support
And this is why your friend is being a twerp… I have no patience for any person who views child support as a punishment. Those kids would be his kids. Yes, he’s responsible for the care and keeping of those kids. And this is not a factor of marriage, this is a factor of having children with any person and then splitting physical custody.
Benefits of marriage-
Guess what, all those “I can just do that with a legal document” arguments… Are getting the courts involved in your relationship. I don’t know why that’s not obvious. Yeah, you can draft a will, power of attorney, mortgage contact, rental agreement, custody plan, trust documents ECT… Or, you can sign the marriage paperwork that covers all that. And if the relationship goes bottom side up, either you can do a quick amicable divorce (marriage) or split of the assets (relationship) OR you can go through divorce court which is specifically designed to deal with all the legalities of extracting your intermingled life (marriage) or you can have fun trying to sort that out in civil court with significantly less legal framework explicitly set up to deal with two individuals fighting like cats and dogs and I hope y’all really hammered out the agreements in your legal documents (relationship). Be honest here, the reasons divorced are ugly is because the relationship break down. Married or relationship is not going to change how bitter people are during this.
Marriage has emotional, religious and social implications for many people. I fully believe two people can completely trust their partner will stay with them without it, good on em. Marriage doesn’t magically change anything. These benefits are all going to be wildly subjective.
All these arguments are only a thing if you have a stay at home spouse or assume your partner is in a significantly lower financial bracket. And honestly, that’s really the only time you’re going to see great tax benefits too. I don’t know what to tell you if you think you’re in love with someone, but the downsides of being with someone less financially well off are more important to you. That’s something you have to figure out. Especially people who want/have to have a stay at home spouse, because half your paycheck is paying for that, and it’s rightly expensive. It’s very odd that men with this mentality clearly base their relationship views on the assumption of a non-financially contributing spouse, which typically happens in two senarios. One being you’re both low income and the cost of raising children exceeds one spouses salary expectations. And the second being one extremely high earner, which the percentage of stay at home mothers is still largely broken down by earning potential of the spouse (at which point it’s honestly a joint decision on the value of having a flexible parent that can accommodate children’s schedules).
I am married but I kind of think like this guy. In addition, marriage is a patriarchal institution and I hate its disgusting history. But I did it for the tax break and other benefits.
I don’t think you have to be married to be 100% committed. I loved my husband dearly before I married him. It’s the system that is messed up.