Hello!
Context: I am part of a 50/50 marriage. My husband and I share all responsibilities (home, bills, etc) 50/50 and I consider myself a believer of equality. My husband also feels this way hence why we work well. Next week I will be a part of a podcast in which I will debate a man on exactly this. He is a Catholic driven person, who uses the bible as reference to his believe that ALL women should be stay-at-home moms who only worry about the house and the kids. He believes men should be the sole providers of the home and believes that under NO circumstances should a women win more money than a man.
I know what I believe, but I would like to hear other’s input as well. I want to stay levelheaded, and not let emotions ruin my points (I can get passionate in these types of subjects). Any respectful points I can apply to the debate would be very helpful! I’m nervous but excited to be able to speak in such a big platform about these points.
45 comments
Women shouldn’t be made to do anything they don’t want to do. That’s it, and that’s all.
There’s no debate to be had with people who view women as constrained to a narrow set of social roles. They are simply misogynists, and until they address that hateful tendency they’re not going to engage with you about it in good faith.
Some women like being stay-at-home moms, and some men like being sole providers. That’s great for them, they can live how they want. But why does it matter if other women outside their relationship don’t want the same things? They’re not married to “all women” after all.
His beliefs have nothing to do with Catholicism.
What is the context of the debate? Are you arguing with this guy about a matter of faith? What are the metrics for deciding what people should or shouldn’t do? If it’s just based on the bible and catholic tradition, then you’ll have to source your arguments from there.
I wouldn’t. Everyone is entitled to choose a relationship that they want. It’s ok if he wants a wife who takes care of the home and there are plenty of women out there who want that too. There’s no right or wrong way. As long as you as partners want the same thing.
For your debate, I wouldn’t chastise what’s important to him… but maybe focus on everyone is different and there’s no one way to live. Just as there’s no single religion in the world. Focus on accepting and not being judgemental… afterall we as mortals aren’t supposed to judge others, only God can. So he can suck it.
Beyond the social and moral aspects, what are his thoughts on the fact that this isn’t even economically feasible for many families?
Well each to their own! But he is under Utilising 50% of the resources in his house and half the people I know who say this earn less than my wife 😭. Also having a daughter I can’t imagine sending her to school teaching her all life skills to spend majority of her life and brain cooking and cleaning for a man who makes less than 300K a year tut. Unless ofcourse catholic man is some big pay day guy who just wants to look after his wife while she goes and gets manicures and spends his money then fair enough.
You can also mention that because Christian’s keep voting for a party that has kept wages lower that having a two income family is a necessity for most families.
Personally, I think debating someone who’s sole evidence is the Bible is never going to work. The entire basis of their faith is the *belief* regardless of facts or other viewpoints. You could be the most elegant speaker, with the best points ever, and it’s not going to convince people who interpret the Bible in that way.
Best of luck though, you have more patience than I
You’re not defending 50/50, you’re defending a choice.
Besides the point that if you can afford it, a SAH spouse is a great idea if there are children, your opponent will only be directed by scripture not reality.
*believes that under NO circumstances should a women win more money than a man.*
Ok, women dominate many fields now, especially in the health sciences in all aspects but particularly doctor, but other professions as well.
There are way more women graduating college and university than men, and this will skew many incomes in women’s favour.
in the USA, something like 7 million men prefer to play on their screens than work and have taken themselves out of the labour pool.
So, ask him where exactly will women find men who can afford to provide for a home and children by themselves.
And then ask him, if he would keep his own daughters, unschooled and ignorant and fit only kids, church and kitchen. Or would he want them to be all they could be.
I think that there are countless examples where women have made great contributions to society. Two inventions come to mind are windshield wipers and bullet proof vest.
Had women stayed home we would be lost without many inventions or at least not nearly as advanced. Also like 90% of healthcare is women dominated. I think we can agree there are jobs in modern society where men tend to not be a fit for the role. (Please don’t crucify me on this part lol) but speaking on biology, how hormones and genders tend to function differently when it comes to how our brains work. (Not saying one is smarter, talking empathy and rational)
Also don’t cite me, thinking back to the invention thing. but I think women only account for like 20% of patent contributions. But I’d imagine that is largely based around how gender roles have played a part.
Women can do what they want and people can just deal with it.
It’s stupid to put all of your finances in the hands of one person.
We are a 50/50 marriage also… and whilst I still earn more it’s not by much. All money is combined and chores are shared…
But, whilst I think equal opportunities should be the normal… I also counter whether the world has become better.
Kids are no longer raised by the family, most spend their time in childcare while both parents work which in my opinion has caused a gradual increase in youth crime and lack of morality, housing prices are now relative to a dual income household as opposed to single…
We have less time as we are always working…
I wouldn’t take my wife’s career away… and I’m not advocating for that, I’m just not sure whether we truely have become better as a society because of it… 🤷🏽♂️
With regards to your friend, you won’t change his mind… and I wouldn’t bother… as a catholic, I hate people that use the bible to push their beliefs on others… if anything, the bible should just teach us to love and accept others… don’t bring yourself down by arguing with an idiot… accept his opinion whether you share it or not. And he should do the same…
50/50 works great until someone isn’t well. 50/50 only works for the partnership/equality of worth, everything else will be divided up accordingly base on circumstances.
Why would I waste my time arguing with someone who is so clearly against treating women as whole ass people? Like… I’m not going to talk someone into basic human respect.
So what should women do if their husband suddenly dies, becomes severely disabled and unable to work/provide, beats them to a pulp regularly, abuses them in any way, etc etc? I’d love to hear his response to this.
OP, you need to speak their (Orthodox Christians) language:
Women should have paid jobs to protect the well-being of a man. 🙂
And now for real.
People just live too long to not have both of the adults in the household to work at some point in their lives. One income, even really good, is not enough to sustain wealth throughout the entire life.
If the husband and father wants the best for his children, unfortunately for him, there’s a lot of statistics showing that kids are doing better if their mom has some kind of carrier outside of the household.
The most important, mental health. Statistically speaking, men are more likely to commit suicide as adults due to being overwhelmed with their responsibilities to provide especially if they cannot provide at the level that they wish. Men are more like me to be addicted to alcohol and have other unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with depression due to mental burden of being the sole provider.
Men are less likely to have a trusted circle of friends to talk about those problems. And their unemployed wife may simply not understand the constant worrying of who’s going to provide if something happens to him.
Men are more likely to die or get sick in early senior years, meaning that they will not be able to forever provide for their families. Let’s be honest there is no way that someone can start employment at 50 or later.
Once the kids are old enough there’s just not enough work for a female to keep cleaning the house, assuming they don’t live on a farm.
Those wives are more likely to get depressed or develop other mental health issues due to the boredom of and lack of purpose outside of a family life. They will also be more likely to cheat on their husband due to time that they have and a need to prove themselves that they are still worth something.
Females, or to be honest any people, who are not intellectually stimulated throughout their adulthood are most likely to get cognitive issues in their elderly life. Meaning that after the husband has been working for his entire life he now has to be taking care of the wife who has dementia.
To summarize. The modern model of a family with a wife working at least some hours outside of the home is not to make the wife’s life easier, it is mostly so the husband also can have a break, either literally a break from work or mentally from all the finanal responsibilities.
Good luck doing the podcast!
Super kudos to you for doing this! I would suggest posting this in a Catholic and/or Catholic Marriages sub (maybe Christian, too, as despite their being differences, Catholicism is a sect of Christianity) and see if they can help you. Maybe people can even find points FROM the Bible that could help you. Good luck!
I guess you can say, “I’m sorry you don’t have the cognitive abilities to recognize that women are people. But I can’t convince you of anything because your IQ is too low to understand.”
I would not participate in a podcast like this because it’s stupid and people can work out their marriages the way they want. But if you’re going to, use Proverbs 31. The superwoman described therein takes care of the household (probably with servants) and runs a vineyard among other businesses.
Human trafficking is illegal. Woman have full autonomy as human beings to self sovereignty to decide how they want to live.
Also: there is no debate. Anyone who tries to debate this is just showing their hand they believe women are property and Dick holsters.
Sounds like a stupid debate.
If he wants a woman to stay home. Fine.
Guess you guys wouldn’t be a match 🤷♂️
Next topic
Fuck that noise.
Here’s the thing, a man with that ideology thinks his day is 9-5 and his wife should cater to his every need because he “worked so hard”. He doesn’t care this his wife woke up earlier than him to pack his lunch and make breakfast or the fact she’s still up running around until it’s finally bed time. A woman’s job is never done.
And LOL at the fact a woman shouldn’t make more money than a man!? So now women shouldn’t be in good career fields? Women shouldn’t advance themselves because it might emasculate a man?
Idk I couldn’t be with a man like that. I need to be with a man that respects me enough to let me grow as a woman. Supports my career and do the dishes for me when I don’t wanna do them.
Feminism: the crazy belief that women are human.
Honestly? [These are the verses](https://bibleportal.com/topic/man-as-provider-(see-also-wives)-) he has to ‘throw’ at you. A whooping seven. And none of them are particularly on point. The two that are really the crutches are going to be 1 Timothy 5:8 and Ephesians 5:23.
Timothy is easy to do away with, because it doesn’t specifically say ‘men’ unless he’s using a very old translation. It is now translated as ‘anyone’, and suggests that parents, both parents, should work together to provide for their kids.
Ephesians is a bit tougher of a nut to crack, but it’s NOT coming from Jesus, it’s coming from Paul, in a letter to a group he’s converted and chastising for backsliding into their heathen ways. If you really want to stump him here, politely ask what Jesus had to say about women working — guess what? There’s nothing. Not a thing. I’m fact, Jesus had a very egalitarian way of looking at women that was at odds with the people of the first century. [This article](https://www.crossway.org/articles/how-jesus-viewed-and-valued-women/) is a really good summary of how.
If you really want to throw him off his talking points, ask him why he agrees with Luther when he’s a Catholic. Look up Luther’s take on women, and the Protestant take on women more generally. That’s where you find the BS about women being home, blah blah blah. And it’s because they believe it’s a moral good for society. I have a bunch of academic articles on that, but a Google search should give you a pretty good idea.
Sorry if this is too much. I teach this stuff, so have a lot of info!
I’d simply point to the rates at which men abandon sick or terminally ill spouses. Men, on the whole, are not good enough partners to demand domestic servants. They never were, women just have more legal rights now
1. In present day economy, few families can afford to live comfortably on one income. Sacrificing quality of life for misogynistic beliefs is illogical.
2. A marriage is treated as a single unit. We all work hard to keep the unit functional. People who are better / more equipped at certain roles should do more of these roles. The gender is irrelevant.
3. Traditional gender roles put too much unnecessary stress on each gender (eg. Husbands must work constantly to provide. Wives must always cook and clean). Modern views on gender allow much greater freedoms. It’s illogical to not take advantage of the freedoms allowed by society.
Well, that’s all well and good. However, the Bible was written 2000 years ago. How many men in 2023 are earning enough to be able to afford for a woman to stay home and raise children? Not very damn many. We are still suffering from a below poverty minimum wage. Has he shopped for groceries lately? Looked at mortgage rates? School tuition? College costs?
How is an old book written by MEN that has chapters left out of it going to help people achieve his idea of what marriage should be today?
And what about men who just up and leave? What, then? I call people like these cement heads.
I love your question.
” He believes men should be the sole providers of the home…”
This is something the Bible doesn’t teach for the Christian. This is part of the culture of Jewish Law in the Old Testament. The same as “women should keep silent in the Church.” That’s New Testament, but I believe was specific to the Corinthian Church, because they were totally chaotic and had lost their way.
“…and believes that under NO circumstances should a women win more money than a man.”
There is nothing Biblical about this stance. This is purely his ego, and his ego alone.
There are things written in the bible that were intended for the times and era in which it was written in. Then there are things that were written that are applicable throughout time, regardless of when they were written. Unfortunately, a lot of people who follow the Bible do not understand this difference.
I was raised Catholic. My parents took us to church every Sunday (unless we were sick, we had to go.) That being said, Dad taught me never to rely on a man for anything. He taught me to earn my own income and how to do things like change a tire and take care of myself. It served me well since my ex left me after 24 years for another woman. I was completely bedridden at the time but because of my career I had a good income from disability. Also, we never would have owned a home in CA with only one income.
If a woman is okay taking that risk, more power to her but she needs to know that it doesn’t always have a happy ending.
Kindly direct the dude to Proverbs 31. The lady of the estate basically runs the family business. So, a biblical wife is not a stay at home mom. She tends to the house and family, but also has business sense and skills which she uses for the benefit of the family.
Then the other point, should a wife be a sahm and the husband the provider, it means that he should provide EVERYTHING.She should have time to rest, time to gum and look after herself, time to study courses such business, first aid, advanced culinary classes etc(so that she can be a better homemaker). He also needs to provide her with proper clothing, a car and fun money. And because he is providing, she shouldn’t have to ask for these things, she’ll need an account that he deposits money into.
There are two sides to that coin that a lot of men don’t want to acknowledge.
I’m a Christian, and while I do believe that men and women are fundamentally different, along with being made for different roles. There is NOTHING in the Bible that states that women MUST stay home and raise kids. There is no scripture that states women must always be stay at home parents. In fact, there are scriptures that alludes to the exact opposite happening.
If they just want to state that it is preferable for a parent to stay home to raise kids. I would actually agree. I believe there are many benefits to families being able to survive off of one income, so that the other can be present with the children. However, I also recognize that is simply not the reality for many families. Most household can’t afford to survive off of one income. So for any households that are dual income, they are not doing anything wrong. And even if you want to use scripture, you can’t point to any verse that states it is wrong for a woman to work. Period.
I’m an atheist, so my entire argument would be for him to demonstrate that the Bible is a source of advice that anyone should care about at all.
What if a man is an extremely patient person and is great with kids. Should he be forced to work if he would have otherwise been the best person in the family to raise the children?
First of all that’s irrational and impractical in this economy. I would probably look up stats and data that show we are in a silent depression currently and the gap between cost of living and wages is significantly farther apart now than it was during the Great Depression, which means two adults in a household NEED to work to make ends meet. Logic!
Second, I’d probably point out that women are people and should get to do what they want. Their parents want to move into retirement communities and live in condos and enjoy their golden years and not support their adult daughters until they get married, so it’s only logical a woman has the means to support herself. Why would she then just stop contributing financially because she gets a husband or a wife?
I’d also point out the labor disparity in this arrangement. A man works 40- MAYBE 60 hours a week five days a week in this arrangement. The woman works every waking hour. And she gets up in the night to care for the kids. Why should the woman have to work harder and longer hours than the man for zero pay?
Women have autonomy and as such, have a right to do live the life they choose, not the life some man who believes in a magic daddy in the sky thinks they should live.
The same way that religion evolved from Judaism to Christianity and that humans evolved, so has this topic. I am very traditional and personally love the fact that my wife gets to stay home and enjoys doing so. However, this was mutually agreed upon and not forced. We planned it for a year and worked towards that goal.
She got the benefit of being close every day with our kids and taking them to school. I missed out on alot of special moments due to work, but our 18 y/o daughter has finally realized what I did for the family. She loves me to death now bc she understands what we both sacrificed for the kids. Good luck!
No one should do anything.
Women have the freedom to choose to stay home; men have the freedom to choose to be the main provide.
It’s a choice. Never obligation.
As a Christian, this is popular.
God told both Adam and Eve to take dominion over the Earth. If women don’t go out and take dominion then she wouldn’t be able to reach her fullest potential.
Provision is not just about money either. Is a husband providing safety, support, love, space for her to voice concerns, etc….
I earn more than my spouse. He is disabled. Should I go emasculate him for not providing? No.
I’m a very devout Catholic woman and completely reject the notion that women should stay at home. It is not a part of the church teaching just a handful of extremely traditional people buy into it.
Here’s your defense. Women have something to offer the world. Ask him if his wife would be comfortable with a male OBGYN.
If you want to appeal to his Catholicism:
St. Gianna and St. Zelle were both working moms and granted sainthood in the church.
He is rejecting his own church by claiming that these women were somehow sinful.
Many women are driven by a passion to offer something to the world. Think of all the working women who’ve made great discoveries for our world and cite them as an example.
Good luck!
His argument is going to rely on a magical being in the sky, telling him that women should always be stay at home mothers. It’s literally impossible to argue against this. I believe that any rational discussion requires all interlocutors to be rational, unfortunately, that’s not the case in your debate.
No debate. I just wouldn’t marry them. 😂 🤷♀️
The Bible? Really? In all of today’s modern technology and ability to access information, humans STILL can’t get the news correct on events that happened last week… but yes, lets reference a book that’s 2k+ yrs old that was written by humans and translated and rewritten by humans thousands of times.
No thanks.
Don’t bother debating believers. As an ex Catholic, I could spend hours telling you all the mental defense mechanisms it takes for a full grown adult to still believe all that stuff – and it’s nothing you can chip away at in an afternoon. It will accomplish nothing but platforming him.
You should use the Bible as well. Slavery, stoning non virgins, genocide, incest and murdering your own children.