I’m pretty fortunate to be able to earn comfortable living. I work in finance where most of my colleagues etc are male. I am passionate about personal finance, investment, etc.
Recently, I’ve dated men who earn less than me. They earn less by choice, some not. I do notice they all end up resentful or offended when I start talking about personal finance and I’m not even pushing them to do the same as me. I just love to discuss about it.
When one of my exes is in savings mode, I do pay more during meals without saying anything or I asked him if he wants me to buy him snacks etc when I go grocery shop but he felt emasculated by this and ended up resenting me.
What can I do better to make sure I don’t offend them and to make sure that I respect them?
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I don’t know that I have an answer, just maybe a question that might help you come up with some: Do these people you refer to, on their income, struggle financially and with bills/expenses?
Frankly, I can’t understand why a guy might have an issue with this, unless it’s maybe because they’re stressed, OR because they’ve experienced past situations where the people they’ve dated have expected them to be the higher income earner – maybe in this case they’re expecting that to eventually become expected, putting further stress on them?
I personally would not care if a partner made more than me – just so long as they don’t boss me around about how to spend my income. I am, however, in a pretty good position (I earn around 60k more than I need to live off, and frankly don’t know what to do with the money – house is paid off after putting 65% of my income in to the loan for the past 2 years).
Many men have a lot of baggage when it comes to being the breadwinner. Being the breadwinner is instilled in us very young and reinforced on us at every point in our lives.
Society treats men as valueless if they have no ability to provide financially for their partner/family and a lot of men internalize that and really take it to heart. It’s probably not anything you have done.
Date a guy that makes more money or nearly as much money as you.
Seems like it’s the issues with the guy. You can’t change them. And this seems like an issue where the person either is okay or not okay.
Maybe gifts will soften the blow?
I’d love for my wife to make more than me. Gives us more financial stability
It could be that you are dating insecure men, or it could be that you are being annoying when you talk about how much money you have.
I wish I knew someone doling out good free advice and interesting financial discussions. You sound like a keeper.
All I have is Youtube. LOL.
Maybe you can feel them out before starting these discussions to see if they are interested. I find it is cool to talk to someone who is passionate and knowledgeable about a subject, but not if it becomes a dominant point of conversation every time I see them.
>They earn less by choice, some not. I do notice they all end up resentful or offended when I start talking about personal finance and I’m not even pushing them to do the same as me. I just love to discuss about it.
The women I’ve dated who earn less by choice also hate discussing finances. I think that part is not gendered.
It’s going to be really hard to overcome the social pressures of being a guy who is not the primary earner in the household. Even if you are cool with it, society won’t be, unfortunately. You need to tackle this issue head on. I would be so happy if my wife earned more than me, but I know my family would criticize me if I retired and became a stay at home spouse, even though that’s my dream.
I’m a high income earning woman who lives in the US South so there’s a lot more gender norms around income here than the Bay Area where I grew up. I’ve found that there’s been no loss by these men quickly identifying themselves as incompatible with me because of their insecurity. That said, I respect the fact that my boyfriend makes about 1/4 of my income and also isn’t really that interested in personal finance by only giving him the big picture updates. For example, he knows when I get raises and he’s seen me just drop money on big ticket items easily. He also knows that I shovel away a ton of income into retirement and investment vehicles and why I’m so fiscally conservative, even if we don’t talk about the particular fund allocations.
Like any deep interest, it may be best to share it at length with similar-minded friends or the good folks over at /r/personalfinance or /r/fireyfemmes instead of your partner, for the same reason that my eyes glaze over when my boyfriend starts talking about land surveying. I geek out about money mostly with two of my friends who are both comfortable talking finances and have the same level of interest in learning.
I think you throw the whole man out until you find someone you’re more compatible with. It’s really a delightful thing for a financial minded person to be able to talk to their partner about finances.
Couple questions:
1. How long have you been dating these men? I.e. how serious are these relationships?
2. Discussing finances in what way? Your retirement strategy? Or how you’re saving for a big purchase or vacation?
If these aren’t serious connects, talking money can be really personal. Obviously there is a point where parties *need* to discuss finances (like when they move in together) but early in the relationship it could be seen as tacky or that you’re judging them for not prioritizing a high earning career. (Really depends on what you’re saying)
If you’re talking about how you think maximizing a 401k and HSA is a good strategy, that’s one thing. If you’re talking about how you’re saving for things *they can’t afford to do with you* that’s understandably a bummer for them. Even talking about maximizing a 401k, while a good strategy, can be annoying because a lot of people simply can’t max out every year, so be cautious.
How are these conversations happening?
Honestly, as I think about this, I can’t help but think you’ve dated some bad eggs. No shame towards you, I just can’t help but think that these were insecure men to begin with.
Perhaps, if they’re resistant to financial discussions they’re either:
A) Not your person. You enjoy personal finance and love talking about it, and there are certainly men who wouldn’t feel emasculated by these things. So I would see how you could find these men.
B) Don’t care about finances as much as you do. You shouldn’t feel bad about this, but if you come across a loving partner who just doesn’t care then it’s okay for them not to as much as you do.
It sounds to me like you enjoy gift-giving and have a fascination with finances.
Things to consider:
A) Finances can be a point of shame for some people. Talking about it directly can overwhelm them and produce anxiety, so learning how to talk to them about it will help a lot. And this will come down to them individually, but I think setting the conversation up can help a ton.
B) They may feel like they’re failing as a partner, so instead of focusing on finances, it might be best to have the conversation around what you want in a partner and how they’re doing in that aspect. Like if they’re upset that they have to save and you had to pay, they may feel like a burden. So reassuring them that you love to pay for things for them because it brings you joy might go better than saying something like, “I have the extra money, I don’t mind.”
C) Give them an alternative or option that helps them feel contributing, “I’ll grab the tickets, do you mind driving and doing XYZ?” Or, “What if I trade you the cost of groceries for mopping the bathroom floor this week?”
D) Avoid talking about it when they’re overwhelmed, but do bring it up and ask them about it. You aren’t there to accuse or point out bad behavior, just say, “Hey, I noticed you were a little upset when I covered groceries, can we talk about it?”
Talk more and normalise things. Really shouldn’t be an issue.
If you live in the same city, you think you’d have this figured out in a few months.
Watch their habits and communicate. There’s going to be a shared spending pool (or some arrangement) in a long-term relationship or marriage. Talk about it.
For context… my wife has a law degree and almost always made more than me. But we had long established our patterns and communication before marriage.
Don’t talk money or career planning on a date. It’s right up there with discussing your future children’s names.
When men have money the assumption is they spend it on their partner, when women have money, societal expectations is they save or spend on themselves, not on a man.
It’s pervasive in our culture that a woman’s money is her own and a man’s money is the families, for better or worse. A lot of men don’t really vibe with a successful woman as they don’t have the societal expectation that they will share and spend it on men in the same way men do on woman.
So how do you handle that? I have no idea, but I’m guessing people who don’t have much money don’t enjoy talking about money and finances a lot. I can’t imagine dating a girl who had little money and thinking they would enjoy long talks about finances, that would seem kinda rude to me. In general, you don’t engage people in reoccurring discussions about things you have that they don’t have, unless it’s around planning for your future. They’re either going to feel insecure/bad or simply not have interest.
Edit: The truth aint always popular.
It’s concerning that this is still an issue amongst men over 30. They should be more objective in talking about finances by this age. Same communication principles still apply. You’re both on the same side, talking about a shared problem that needs an equitable compromise.
There are a couple of things at play here.
1 – There is simply a subset of men that will be uneasy about their partner significantly out earning them and their insecurity will manifest in a lot of ways that cause friction.
2 – Some of your phrasing makes it sound like you could be coming off as condescending, even if you don’t mean to. Asking, “I’m getting stuff for my apartment, what are your favorite snacks?” Or after you’ve been dating for a while and know what they like, “any new snacks you want me to keep?” Is a lot different than asking “I’m going shopping and I’ll buy you some snacks.” The latter comes across like it’s some sort of grand favor and youre implying that I can’t afford it, but you’re flaunting that you’re rich so you won’t notice the added expense. From personal anecdotes, a lot of people that I’ve met that work in finance come across as preachy and judgmental when it comes to anything with money. They always know a better way, and you’re dumb for thinking anything else.
If your lifestyle is naturally more upscale due to making more money, then men who make less will naturally have a tough time keeping up with you while also keeping their own financial goals in mind.
In other words, if a potential partner is gonna be spending all their money keeping up with you and not building savings, etc it will drive resentment and problems. If you’re good with footing the bill for an elevated lifestyle for the both of you, then it could work out with a partner who makes alot less than you but most women are not interested in this sort of dynamic.
So I think if you are looking at dating someone who makes less then you, a frank conversation about lifestyle expectations would be a good idea.
Choose better partners
If your metric is “super traditional manly man” some of this is probably expected