I (31F) had (yet another) fight over the phone with my mother (56F) this morning, at the end of which she hung up (as is usual when she doesn’t like what she is hearing).
She called to ask about organizing stuff for Christmas, which I told her my husband and I hadn’t talked about it yet, but we probably weren’t going to have a lot of time because of stuff with our house (we have just been approved for the final part of our finance to do a knockdown-rebuild of our house), so we can start booking in demo, etc. But we need to sort through all of our junk, remove what we can keep/sell etc., and have a limited amount of leave between the two of us to do this.
It then devolved from when she told me we had been nominated to do an expensive and time consuming dish, and when I asked who was paying for it (she’s aware that we are saving like crazy to be able to pay for things/works for the new house), she asked why does it matter. She then hung up when I was trying to re-explain the above, and that she can’t just demand things and expect us to go along.
A bit more context to the below – my husband and I got married only recently, and mum contributed about half the money for the wedding (approx. $10K). We have expressed our thanks for this.
She hung up on me, I sent the following message:
“Great job treating me like an adult like you (say) you always try to do.
You can’t make decisions for us (especially that cost money and a significant amount of time) and then crack the shits when we say that does not work for us.”
She responded as below:
“When are you going to stop being so selfish. It’s not a significant amount of time, it’s Christmas day. You cam slow cook something whilst doing other stuff. As for costing money, it’s not that much and if it is such a problem talk to me. I have just laid out a significant amount of money on you and Chris, did I get any thanks or recognition… ah no. The way you speak to me is what hurts most. I won’t be around forever and we need to make memories now”
She always says that I hurt her when I am just trying to either get my own point of view across, or express my own feelings. I also feel like it is manipulation to try and hold her contributing to our wedding over my head.
Considering all of the above, does the below seem like a fair response?
“You cannot offer to pay for some of our wedding, then throw it back in my face when we have a disagreement. It was a gift freely given and does not mean I owe you everything you ask for or in this case, demand. And I have thanked you multiple times for this already.
I never said we would not stop in at all for Christmas. I said we might need as much time as we can get to do stuff with the house, and we still needed to talk about it. I have spoken to Chris and (tentatively) looks like we will spend a day going around and seeing everyone, which means that we may not have time for a full lunch. We may only be able to stop in for a half hour visit. This is still to be confirmed.
As for the brisket, you seem to have no idea how much time goes into it being done properly in a smoker. It needs constant attention and needs to start very early to be ready for lunch.
Times have changed, and our relationship is that of 2 adults, not a parent raising a child. The expectations you hold need to change about how you ask things of me. You cannot assume that anything you want done will be, and you cannot tell me how things will be. You need to ask a question and respect the answer.”
I feel like it may be missing something, but I also have plans to set other boundaries with her as well that can tie into this. All suggestions welcome!
25 comments
As the child of an immature parent, I personally have no tolerance for conditional love. It seems like, predictably, she got it into her head that the money gives her a hold on you. However, feeding into her (inane) points may just keep the argument going on. You’re not missing anything; you’re being baited.
You’re not wrong, but having a $20k wedding when you can’t afford it really isn’t the smartest idea, so I understand her frustration in that regard. She’s going about it completely immaturely, however.
It’s wrong for her to throw the wedding cost in your face, and a big yuck if she actually hung up on you, but honestly you’re not really on the innocent high road here either. You say you want her to treat you like an adult – fair enough – but consider your own passive-aggressive remarks like, “good job…” and “who is paying for it?” Plus, your reasoning is weird. If you don’t have time to do it, why does it matter who is paying? Your final response sounds reasonable, but you both showed some poor behavior leading up to it.
This is stuff to say in person/call, not over text. If you’re just setting expectations (because those aren’t really [boundaries](https://www.thecandidly.com/2019/if-you-still-dont-get-boundaries-this-one-idea-might-change-everything)), that’s fine over text (and honestly wise to do over text), but stop explaining and just set expectations. All that can be very simply boiled down to: “Rest assured, we will provide a dish for Christmas dinner. If you want brisket, then you can provide it yourself. I will not be discussing this any further. I will be in contact with the time to meet at our place once my husband and I have discussed it. Love [CapButchFlowers]” And then do not engage any further. Reasons are for reasonable people. When you give unreasonable people reasons, they only take those are points with which to argue with you about. The more you talk, the more they have to manipulate.
Captain Awkward is an advice blogger who’s [done a lot on difficult families and boundaries](https://captainawkward.com/2019/10/29/we-are-spartacus-open-thread-resources-on-family-estrangement-and-adult-relationships-with-difficult-parents/). I think you would benefit by spending some time going through her archives before you decide how to move forward.
My father is like this- his wife sent me a message recently stating we owed him grandchildren (i had a hysterectomy after a stillbirth) and access to our lives because he paid for my education (he did not). And either we pay him back or give him grandchildren that he has full access to, or they will seek legal action. (For what I don’t know, we don’t even live in the same country).
You’re not missing anything- these people want control and want to have the upper hand and last word.
That being said- you poked the bear and looked for a fight with your initial text. You both seem to antagonize each other.
“ if you’re gonna ask me now about Christmas I think it’s best if you just plan without us… we Will definitely stop by for dessert or some thing. That’s all I can commit to at this point.”
One of the big issues I’ve seen in my own difficult relationships, and that I see repeated here, is the belief that if you just find the right words you can defuse the situation.
IMO, that’s a waste of time. As you correctly point out, you’re an adult and you’re tired of being ordered around like a child. So… make that clear. Just straight up tell her what you’re going to do. Stop negotiating, stop trying to convince her of anything. Talk to her like any adult peer.
Example:
“<Partner> and I will be there at <date, time>. We would be happy to bring something already prepared from the grocery store, such as a dessert or side dish, or perhaps a couple of bottles of wine. If that doesn’t work for you, we will just bring ourselves. Thank you.”
First, you’re right and she’s wrong. End of.
However, your text isn’t going to help. Meeting aggression with aggression isn’t going to make anything better. You wrote the above when you were very angry, and I think you’d do well to breathe a while before you send it. You can get the same message across using a softer tone. You clearly love your mom & don’t want your relationship severed. You want it to be different.
Maybe:
Mom, Chris and I are nothing but grateful for your generosity in helping with our wedding. We’ve thanked you repeatedly. I’m not sure what more we can do to express our appreciation. You bring it up so often that I can see that helping us really bothered you, and I wish that weren’t the case. So, again, thank you for your generous contribution to our wedding.
As for Christmas, I simply don’t have the time, money, or bandwidth to do all that you would like me to. I cannot make the brisket this year. Everything at the house is too chaotic, and I cannot do it.
Chris and I do plan to take a break from our work on the house on Christmas Day, but that break involves going from house to house visiting everyone. We’ll likely not be able to be at your house for lunch, but our plans aren’t solid yet.
I don’t like fighting with you. I’m doing my best to manage everything in my life, and it hurts me a lot when you make demands of me and become enraged when I cannot meet those demands. I’m happy for you to ask for my help, and I do help you when I can. I just don’t understand why you treat me as though you hate me when I tell you that I can’t meet one of your demands. This has to stop, Mom. You need to stop treating me like I’m a kid who has to obey you. I’m allowed to tell you no. When you ask me to do something, I will always do what I reasonably can. When I tell you that a request is too much for me, please have enough respect for me to believe what I’m telling you.
I really do want things to be different between us. I hope you do, too.
>Times have changed, and our relationship is that of 2 adults, not a parent raising a child.
Then you have to act like an adult and model the behavior you want from her instead of extending the fight with her by your initial text response- which was childish. You have to start responding by stating your reasonable boundaries in a calm and clear way and stop taking the bait. She acts out, gets manipulative, you stay calm, and repeat the boundary politely. We can’t change people, only our response.
*Mom, I know how important the holidays are to you and we are looking forward to celebrating. As I said on the phone due to what is happening at the house now we can’t handle a brisket at this time. We will be bringing (suggest something you are comfortable making).*
Then you do that.
You’re an asshole
I kinda get where you’re coming from but I suspect that your relationship with your Mum hasn’t changed overnight so accepting $10k for a wedding then asking who is going to pay for brisket is an asshole move in my opinion. Bit naive to think that amount of money is just freely given, there’s always strings attached. You clearly know what she’s like so you could have handled it way better imo.
Of course I know nothing about your relationship with your mother and maybe this is just the tip of the iceberg.
But from this little scene you don’t come across as all that mature either.
You and your husband still have to talk about if you can spare half an hour on christmas? And not bring anything? You say you have a big family, are you the only one who is asked to bring something? Or is everyone pitching in?
Because if you plan to fly by, grab food and presents and flaunce of again then you are really not that much better than any sullen teenager.
I think you should tell your mother that you can’t make it this year. I would be very hurt by this too.
Mothers of adult children are allowed to have feelings too and they are not an convenience store full of ready made christmas delights.
That being said, your mother sounds like she is not an easy person either. But you should try and see her point too.
It will be really hard but you need to not bite, give answers like “we haven’t had a chance to talk about Christmas yet, we will talk about it and let you know… oh that’s the door, I have to go, bye mum”.
Then you can prepare your reply that you deliver when you call her and she’s not geared up with her plan, and your response is “we will be …….., and bringing …,,” and to any “but I want you too bring this do that be there for this time”, reply “yea, that won’t work for us this year, will will (repeat original statement) don’t give explanations, reasons, excuses because when you argue your case, she thinks she can argue with those, and overrule you.
well I don’t cook much, so anyone expecting a brisket from me would be shit out of luck, but I would try to make up for it in other ways. I would kindly explain it is impossible for me to cook a brisket but I will bring one or two apple pies (personally I would order these from a good bakery and bring those) if they like or anything else, and basically just ask them if they want pies and cookies or bottles of wine/other beverages.
All you need to do is tell her no, I cannot cook a brisket and don’t expect one. Then ask/offer to bring something else. Do NOT send that wordy, patronizing email to your mother. It’s way overboard. Clearly she wants to make memories (maybe she is dying?) so you need to focus on happy moments and make the most out of that half hour you’ve set aside for holiday time with mom. Geez,did you even send her an actual Thank You card? Ten thousand dollars is a LOT of money she could have put in a high interest CD last year instead
Who has a $20k wedding when they’re going in to massive debt for house renovations ? ‘Hey mum, really appreciate the offer but could we put that towards our home instead and do a registry wedding?”
Personally, I think you’re as bad as each other.
From one child of emotionally immature parents to another: I get you. My mother was the same and arguing about things like these is frustrating. It rarely brings out out best selves in any case.
I am not saying you should give in, but rather consider her perspective before reacting. Unhealthy communication patterns and entitlement/guilt-tripping aside, maybe for her, Christmas is about spending time with family and an act of love is making time for that. She might feel she gave a lot lately, but you are not willing to give back time and attention and it feels one-sided. Or that immediately after she went out of her way to help you, you distance yourself and prioritize spending time with someone else. Regardless of the relationship, that hurts. She might misunderstand the time it takes for the food to be prepared and yes, you could have talked to her about it. On the other side, you talking about the cost of the dish is inappropriate – she paid for half your wedding, during which you still managed to save towards work on your house and now you’re complaining about cost of meat for brisket? Unless you are cooking a meal for 20 people that is selfish in my book.
The last point as folks said: talk to her vs text and check yourself as well. As children of emotionally immature parents we were not taught how to communicste well and often do not do well in emotionally charged situations. Your passive-aggresive responses show it. You will have a much better result if you don’t just state your boundaries, but show the reasoning and show some compassion for how she might feel. Maybe act towards her like she is a troubled person you love, instead of a nuisance that you want to have peace from. You will talk to her differently, even if giving the same messages.
Yeah I think you’re being an asshole.
You couldn’t spare your mother more than 30mins ons Christmas? It’s one day. I think you handled the situation badly.
Your mom didn’t handle it well either.
But if you want to be as mature as you claim, then you can’t act like a child and then turn around and pretend to be mature.
I think you initially asking “who is paying for it” about the dish was immature. You could have simply said, unfortunately I don’t have the time to contribute a dish, but I will stop by for a short visit to say hello. You seem annoyed to be asked to do anything with all your other priorities while your mom seems more hurt to not see you for a significant amount of time. I think a little introspection on your part is warranted. She shouldn’t hold gifts or money over your head, but it seems like she wants to hurt you back for rejecting time with her and this was her petty way of doing it.
​
*”Times have changed, and our relationship is that of 2 adults, not a parent raising a child. The expectations you hold need to change about how you ask things of me. You cannot assume that anything you want done will be, and you cannot tell me how things will be. You need to ask a question and respect the answer.”* ~ this is so condescending, I can’t fathom sending this to a parent who is even in the wrong. You can’t force anyone to respect you, but you can simply state your boundaries without needing to tell anyone else what to do.
You don’t fully look like 2 adults, neither of you. But I get you, because you’re angry. I think you have to calm down a bit, and remove the wood you’re putting on the fire
Nope nope nope. My parents (divorced) each spent the same amount as you guys on our recent wedding too. My dad is never a problem with stuff like this, but I had to literally get it in writing with mom before a dollar was exchanged that if she was going to contribute to the wedding, this would in fact need to be a gift and I was in no position to take on a loan. I told her that if she didn’t want to pay for a wedding I would be happy to elope. She said “Of course, I want to do this, I’m happy to.”
She then proceeded to rub it in all of our noses from the moment planning began. Making snide comments that were “jokes” about how she’s the one footing the bill and so it should be her choice whether we do this or that.
I should have known she would act like that after I gave her half of my inheritance earlier this year when my grandfather died, to pay my debts off with her. She helped me buy a used car on Craigslist a couple years ago and would lend me a couple hundred bucks every couple months here and there. So I owed her. Best believe she used her experience in finance to keep an itemized tally of everything she ever gave me financially over my 10 years of adulthood.
When I got the check from my grandfather’s trust (it wasn’t much, just under 5 figures) I immediately texted her and said “give me a number, what’s the amount that I owe you.” She told me, I went straight to the bank, got a cashiers check for the exact amount to the penny, and dropped it in her mailbox. I texted her and told her it was there and she responded “thanks” and we never talked about it after that.
I swore that day that I would never ever let her get me under her thumb again. When you owe my mom money, she treats you like a payday lender. The terms and conditions are always extremely harsh and not worth it. The wedding “gift” was a mistake I shouldn’t have made, because she’s now holding it over my younger sister’s head who just got engaged; my sister can’t even talk about her wedding without mom going on about how much she paid for mine, as if that’s my sister’s fault. I would have never taken anything if I knew she would guilt my sisters for it when their time came.
Sigh. It’s exhausting to have a parent who is so money focused. Pay her back if you can and don’t ever take a dime again. These people will never let it go.
IVY, it’s not easy trying to change the dynamic of child to parent to adult child to parent. Especially when the parent resists.
I’m 52F and still fighting this fight with my 84F mother.
Don’t send all of that, like another poster said, it will be a waste of time. She called about Christmas plans so be direct about that. If the dish is something you can’t afford, just say we are not bringing that dish we are bringing *insert alternative dish or drinks or whatever.* and what time/day you all will be there.
I’m not saying your mom is a narcissist but my mom is and she LOVES to “give things” and then throw it in your face later. You can’t even decline the gifts, she used to hide money in my apartment and then get very upset when I didn’t bend over backwards thanking her. I thought it was me hiding things rofl.
Go over to r/raisedbynarcissists and see if the stories there can help you with dealing with your mom.
I will say that you overexplain, which is likely how you were raised to be. Don’t be afraid to say no, and set boundaries. Of course she will hate it and call you selfish but you are not. She is. Look up the ‘grey rock’ method and do this, also don’t give her so many details about your life. It just gives her ammo to use against you.
> mum contributed about half the money for the wedding (approx. $10K).
Said it before, I expect I’ll say it again, but free money is seldom worth the price you have to pay for it.
I do like your answer to your mother – measured and respectful, but firm.
One of the big mistakes people make when setting boundaries is trying to explain/defend why they need it. The other is trying to set a boundary about what the other person thinks/does, which you have no control over.
>You cannot offer to pay for some of our wedding, then throw it back in my face when we have a disagreement.
Yes, she can and has.
>I never said we would not stop in at all for Christmas. I said we might need as much time as we can get to do stuff with the house, and we still needed to talk about it. I have spoken to Chris and (tentatively) looks like we will spend a day going around and seeing everyone, which means that we may not have time for a full lunch.
Way too much explaining and defending yourself.This gives her room to pick apart your plans (why do you need to see everyone, you don’t want to do that much driving, he always takes priority, his family get you all the time, the house can wait for one day, etc). Saying tentatively also makes it sound like you’re open to changing your plans for her.
>As for the brisket, you seem to have no idea how much time goes into it being done properly in a smoker. It needs constant attention and needs to start very early to be ready for lunch.
Again, you don’t need to explain why making the dish is hard. It doesn’t actually matter if it’s easy or not, the important info is that you won’t be making it.
>Times have changed, and our relationship is that of 2 adults, not a parent raising a child.
This is what you want the relationship to be, not what it currently is. You might have to let go of the idea that you can change her perception of you with the right words.
> The expectations you hold need to change about how you ask things of me. You cannot assume that anything you want done will be, and you cannot tell me how things will be. You need to ask a question and respect the answer.
You have no control over this. You can’t make her adjust her expectations, or stop making assumptions, or respect you. What you do have control over is how you respond to unacceptable behaviour.
“Mom, we have thanked you for your contribution to our wedding and we will always appreciate it. At Christmas, we are available to visit on DATE at TIME. We aren’t available to stay for lunch or to bring brisket, but we can bring ITEM. Let me know if that works for you or if it would be better to visit on a different day.”
If she rage cancels the Christmas visit, let her. If she insults you, ignore the message. If she tries to guilt trip you, ignore the trap and simply reiterate the dates and times you are available.