Got shut down by a first date I had *ridiculous* chemistry with… because she was completely abhorred by my preference to split the check. (i.e. I wasn’t *against* paying, but I would *prefer* to split. At one point, she said “if someone is pursuing me, they should show me how much they want me” by paying).
I posted in a different sub about it and the amount of misandry in the comments is ridiculous. Same w/ any other thread it’s brought up. I feel worthless.
If both people have full-time jobs, why am I morally obligated to subsidize a stranger’s free time all of a sudden? **Both people have incomes…** and it can lead to people getting used romantically for their wallets. This has happened to me several times, and I’ve had enough.
32 comments
Supply and demand
I pay for dates because it is old-school polite and I like the tradition of it.
A lot of women are totally fine with splitting the bill, some women aren’t, and that’s fine. If you had “ridiculous chemistry” and blew the whole thing up over it that’s probably for the best – you could have sunk years into the relationship before you found the thing that broke you.
Consider it a blessing that they’re waving red flags for you early on.
The last woman I dated before I met my wife wanted to play games about pursuing her, and it ended the relationship. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
People want to be in a traditional relationship without being traditional themselves.
You made the right move OP. In my experience women like that are high maintenance gold diggers who aren’t worth the investment.
Because we haven’t stopped.
My thoughts about this are this: if a woman is a traditional woman, in the sense that most of her principles are old-school and traditional, then that’s fine. It’s not the woman I want to be with, and I move along when I find this type of woman. No harm, no foul. I just prefer a women who has more modern principles and not old school.
But if I come across a woman where most of her principles are not traditional, and they speak out against these traditions, and are generally about new modern and progressive principles, yet make exceptions for things like this example, that’s when I get angry. I find that incredibly hypocritical. You are either traditional, or you’re not. You can’t pick and choose things where you want 99% of your principles to be equal in a relationship (household task, child-rearing, and so many other things), but when it comes to paying for a date, you decide things should be traditional. That’s a big red flag in my opinion.
If you want things to be fair in a relationship, then make them fair across-the-board. Don’t start playing this game where you try to get out of something and pull that card.
As a gay man, I hear from both sides and it’s interesting. Without being sexist, there is a subset of entitled female people out there who boast and laugh, in private, about going on dates for food and entertainment. It’s kinda gross, broke girl behavior and I would avoid girls like this because you are absolutely not the only guy they’ve seen this week. You think you hit it off but she was just flashing you her charm because they believe they’re paying you with their company. It’s a privilege to be seen with them, to spend time with them, and even interact with them.
Men can be like this too. Mostly femboys and twinks.
You just found a red flag, good for you!
Our society is still pretty rigid when it comes to certain male gender roles.
Also how does…
> she said “if someone is pursuing me, they should show me how much they want me” by paying
…Not apply to her as well
Because all the social engineering in the world doesn’t change biology/evolutionary preferences (take your pick).
Like a woman once told me on a date: ‘I go on dates around 3-4 times a week with different guys, and it is simply not viable to pay regularly, but surely with your dating frequency, which I expect to be around 1-2 times a year, I assume it wouldn’t impact your finances as much as it would mine.’
> “if someone is pursuing me, they should show me how much they want me”
I agree with her a little if it’s actually a pursuit: you’re interested and are trying to convince her she should be.
If it’s through a dating site, though, no one is pursuing anyone. Split bills should be the default.
This information tells you that you two are not compatible. That is good information for you to have. What are you upset about?
Different people have different expectations informed by age, gender, background, culture and experiences. Just focus on what you’re looking for.
> have to
> morally obligated
You don’t have to do anything. If you want to split, split. The result might be that you don’t get to continue to date some people. You do _have to_ be okay with that. She doesn’t owe you another date or relationship just as you don’t owe her dinner. But given your tone, that’s what’s bothering you. You don’t want to meet her expectations but want to continue dating her. Disabuse yourself of that notion right now and you’ll be better for it.
People are allowed to have expectations, even ones you consider out of touch or unreasonable. You’re not morally obligated to do anything. Move on and date someone who aligns with yours. If you feel like you’re not able to date the type of person you want, adjust your expectations/behavior based on what you think will attract them and what you can reasonably provide or commit to doing.
Because women can afford to have that requirement. They can have that requirement and still get countless dates. As a man, you can also have that requirement, but best of luck finding lots of dates.
Paying for your date sets a tone for what you are looking for.
I like traditional roles. I would like to pay but also make most of the decisions, support the family financially, while my partner is my rock at home, takes care of the house wellbeing and keeps my sanity.
I understand and respect that not everyone wants this. If she wants to pay for it or split the bill is a good indicator of the type of relationship that is expected.
If you want to split the bill that is perfectly fine, the type of relationship you are looking for has a different dynamic from mine. The type of woman and relationship and partner you will get will also be different from mine, and that’s ok.
It’s great that you found out upfront that you are not matching types. You don’t want to spend months with someone that is not meant for you
Okay, there is a lot of really bad information out there about this. I have dated a lot of women and have won the grand prize. Here’s the real talk:
If you want to do well in dating, you have to get over the quid-pro-quo bullshit. You are not morally obligated to do anything, but it is what it is, do not fight it. Demanding it will make things more difficult on yourself.
Dating is a dance, and it is unfair and unequal, so men will have to do different things than women have to do.
Get over this “misandry” victim mentality bullshit. Don’t let the soft ideology of “poor me” creep into your brain, and do not let it morph into angry spoiled teenager. It is cringe-inducing and women will absolutely not like men who do not act like they have agency in their own lives.
Now, this chick may have been terrible, anyways, but that’s her problem. Good riddance.
Bring the focus back to you.
I’m telling you that if you want to be a good dancer, one move you need to learn and just execute is to not worry about who is going to pay for the first date. I get it, you probably are afraid of getting taken advantage of. She’s afraid of dating a chump. Something has to give, so being a man who has agency in his life, you be the one to go out on a limb, because you’re tough enough to take it if it doesn’t work out.
Now, the real challenges of dating can begin. Forget about the petty “who pays on the first date” nonsense, it’s a waste of energy.
My wife offered to split the first meal. I declined and said I would pay for this one, since I invited her out, and she could take care of the second one. She was an adult woman in her 30s by the time I met her.
Understand that most young women, like most young men, are confused as fuck and have no idea what is going on, so they will be full of dumb ass opinions just like you are, and just like I was, that they will likely change over time. You need to dig under the surface to see if these are just dumb ass opinions (like spending too much time worrying about who will pay the bill) or if they are indicative of deeper character traits that are incompatible with you.
So please, men, for the love of god, get over this paying for first dates angst and just fucking do it.
>why am I morally obligated
You’re not, and you never were.
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>Why is it still accepted
Because we keep doing it.
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>because she was completely abhorred by my preference to split the check.
That’s her problem.
In my experience, you either didn’t have as much chemistry as you thought, or she really subscribes to that mentality. Remember that this discussion is online centric. Many people still go by the guy paying for everything in the beginning without a second thought.
I pay for first dates always. I have to be pretty disgusted with the other person to insist on splitting.
Yes, I “waste” money this way. But I figure I go on a first date maybe once a month on avg (got my 11th one in ‘23 tonight 😭), so I just budget for it.
If it’s important to you, then keep insisting on splitting. If it’s important to them, then they can keep being dramatic about having to pay their portion. Sounds like you two aren’t compatible.
Conclusion: it’s a mixed bag out there, and my only advice is to pick your battles. For me, this is not the hill I’m willing to die on.
Don’t go to dinner dates.
> why am I morally obligated to subsidize a stranger’s free time all of a sudden?
You’re not morally obligated to pay for a date. You’re free to walk away from the date, as you did, that’s fine. She’s free to have whatever standards she wants, as are you. Clearly you two weren’t compatible.
You’re not *entitled* to a date who wants the same things as you do, ridiculous chemistry or no. So you just gotta keep looking and hope you find one that fits with what you want.
> she said “if someone is pursuing me, they should show me how much they want me”
You dodged a bullet then. You shouldn’t take this as some kind of societal rule. That’s just her dating baggage.
It’s only as accepted as you accept it.
> why am I morally obligated to subsidize a stranger’s free time all of a sudden
You’re not. And it’s hardly “all of a sudden” just because you had this one experience.
Anyway, you’re preaching to the choir here.
This is a classic case of supply and demand my friend.
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Men have saturated the sex market. So women are a high demand, limited supply. And when women are limited supply, price increase happens. If you aren’t willing to pay for a date, there are probably about 10 men behind you that are.
I dated many moons ago and I always paid for dates. It was a given the guy pays. Is it fair? No. But as I tell my kids all the time, life is seldom fair.
And yes there is a ton of hypocrisy where the girl boss expects to be wined and dined for free. But that’s the world we live in.
What a weird take, as a whole.
You clearly didn’t have ‘ridiculous chemistry’ with someone that you couldn’t even agree on paying for a date with. You claim that you weren’t ‘against’ paying but yet you’re clearly making it an issue. At best you aren’t ‘against’ paying for it so long as you can complain.
Furthermore, it has *nothing* to do with morals and no one is ‘entitled’ to *anything* from the other person, full-stop. You aren’t any more entitled to her splitting than she is for you paying in entirety.
If you can’t even agree on who pays for the first date then you clearly aren’t a match because the first date is kinda necessary. Find someone who feels the same way as you and stop complaining that others feel differently.
While I’m hoping to not ever have to go on another first date, if I do then I will *always* pay for it. It’s acceptable because there are plenty of men, like me, out there getting dates because we don’t kick out the entire part of the population that wants to split. Simply put-it gives me more options.
If you get this upset over something so simple then you simply need to be upfront with all of the women you’re matching with early on so that you’re not wasting both people’s time.
Not a dude, but I always offer to split on the first date, but if they’re insistent I’ll let them pay… but I’d probably try to pay the next time or maybe get treats or something.
I personally have a hard time letting others spend their money on me without feeling like i need to even it out. My thought is “I work hard for my money, they work hard for theirs”
Not all women are toxic like your date. I’d much rather have someone put in the effort/thoughtfullness rather than the amount of money they spend.
I had friends who insisted on men paying for first dates.
One of them said it was a good way to see if the man was serious about her, and if they would try to use it to demand or pressure her into sex. And it was a way to see if they were generous, since she wanted a man who would provide for any children they had. She didn’t want a man who would be cheap when it came to family.
One of the women I knew said it was because she was expected to wear makeup and be dressed up. Another said it was a man’s role. I had a friend who said she’d be expected to do all the household duties, since men never bother so the least they could do is provide financially. Hers will have been cultural issues too.
To be fair, most of the women I knew who insisted on men paying for the first date are now married or in long term relationships. The ones who didn’t, are single barring one friend but she’s in a rocky place right now.
I still get told I should expect a man to pay, but I’ve had too many experiences where they’ve tried to pressure me into sex to accept that.
I reckon sometimes it’s because the people around you who got into serious relationships and seem to be doing well, did have men who paid. So maybe that has an impact?
The idea that the man should pay for dates is most certainly not universal. I’ll give you the same advice I would give a woman complaining about being expected to do all the house work. Don’t let the dickheads telling you what gender roles you should adopt push you into situations where you feel taken advantage of. Gender roles are not at all necessary. There is nothing wrong with deciding for yourself what sort of relationship you would like to have and coming up with your own perspective of what would be fair in a relationship. People should think for themselves and get to know themselves then look for a partner compatible with that if they want a partner.
I will throw out a counter intuitive thought process that I believe drives some of this behavior. While I can absolutely pay for my own things, there is a sense that if a man is willing to take me out and pay for it, then it’s one more piece of evidence that he is 1. Truly interested in me and not just playing every field possible 2. Has the potential to be reliable as a long term partner to not be a couch dweller who refuses to complete a honey do list in a reasonable amount of time. While there are negative stereotypes for women as gold diggers, there are also negative stereotypes of men as lazy and controlling. At the beginning of dating both sides are trying to gauge whether the other is a match. And some people place meaning on the payment gesture as part of that process. And before you downvote me to hell, my long term partner paid for me at the very beginning, then 3 months in Covid hit and I paid for everything (not just dates) for the next 2 years. It has only been recently that he has started paying for some things again. So it isn’t that it matters long term, but for some women it means there is true interest.
I moved to a new city and started dating pretty heavily. One thing I’ve found out is that the women who are worth your time and also “intentionally dating” offer to split the bill or “buy the next round”. They’re also usually educated and successful.
I haven’t been single in 8 years now, but I split on all my dates back then and I went on a dating spree for awhile so it’s not like this is a small sample size. I think a few of the dates we decided one of us would pay that date and the other the next(yes to getting 2nd dates before the first date is over).
Maybe I just aimed low but the paying thing wasn’t an issue.
I’ve had women pay for the first date before. She wanted me to go for supper then attend a play with her. I was completely honest with her and said I didn’t have the disposable income to go out. She came back with “I’m buying them.”
We went for dinner, drinks, the show and then we went to her place and we fucked until 4 in the afternoon.
As a female, I expect to pay my half for a first date. If the guy offers, I’ll allow him to pay *if I’m interested in a second date*. If I don’t want another date, I’m pretty persistent about paying for myself. After that, I discuss on a second date my preferences. Whoever invites for the date can offer to pay. But I always expect to pay my half. I am definitely an outlier since I live in the south.
I doubt the chemistry was that good if she shut you down over this. If that’s a dealbreaker for her, sounds like you dodged an expensive bullet.