I am not that smart. Probably somewhere around average intelligence.
But I do think things through and I can think critically and logically.
My immediate family is *also* not that smart. *Also* somewhere around average intelligence. At least I’d like to think so, but sometimes they do seem really stupid. They won’t understand things that should be obvious. And they do not really seem have critical thinking skills. They seem to belief things, not because they reached a logical conclusion, but because it “feels right” to them.
I find myself slowly getting frustrated by this. I usually try to correct when they’re wrong, because it is what I would want from someone else. To correct someone who is wrong is to help them.
But they don’t seem to really receive what I’m saying. I wonder if I just don’t explain it well.
I think the most frustrating part is that I feel like I am responsible to correct their incorrect beliefs. Not only because it is what I’d want from them if circumstances were reversed, but because it would feel wrong not to. Even disrespectful. I don’t want to just nod and smile and think to myself, “How nice to see my loved ones so charmingly naïve.”
If they did that to me I would feel like they kept something from me when they should have my back. But is this exactly what I should do for myself? It does sound a lot easier and less irritating than trying to explain and correct everything.
45 comments
Please forgive the entirely unneeded “*when*” in the thread title. Editing error.
Stop caring.
People will see you as a know-it-all.
Treat it as an opinion you can agree to disagree and move on.
Welcome to the club. I don’t know your age, but if you are young, you find out soon that most people don’t want to be corrected.
Most people, including all of us, operate within their own [bias world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias?wprov=sfti1) to some degree.
The more you try to be rational, logical, learn about cognitive biases, the more likely you will run into this issue.
Find a way to accept them or you will end up distancing yourself from them.
Life Rule #1: You cannot argue against someone’s feelings. Feelings aren’t facts; they’re completely subjective by nature. When you argue against someone’s feelings, you’re actually being an asshole.
Life Rule #2: Attempting to educate willfully ignorant people is a waste of time and energy. A simple “I see it differently” is about as good as you can get with people like that.
Life Rule #3: It’s not your job to save a whole family from themselves.
The Venn Diagram of these rules is one circle in your case. I would (and have) spend as little time as possible with these people. Go find your people.
Don’t give a fuck.
I spent a long time protecting and trying to help idiots in my family and now the one specific dumbass is going to have to deal with a lot of court shit because he’s too fucking stupid to listen.
You can fix ignorance, you can’t fix stupid.
LOL, I’ll bet dollars to dog poo that these “incorrect beliefs” have some political angle to them. Something like vaccines or who the president should be or something like that. If I’m wrong, my apologies. If I’m right, there’s no convincing anyone of anything like that. You just have to accept that maybe two things can be true at the same time.
Same boat, daddy was a preacher and my siblings are nurse and PA. Smart enough people living in the Bible Belt and single issue voting based on abortion.
I moved away. I go visit once a year and we get our fill of family time. When I was younger those visits often turned into drama. These days I go, let my kids get some cousin time, drink and jolly spirits with siblings. Then when it’s time to go home I’m so ready to go home.
I prefer to keep them in my life but at a distance. I love them and all their faults. I have my faults too though different.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but I think it was from a book about talking to people about God (obviously big discrepancies can exist in this area). It mentioned that you have to think of people’s minds as a man on an elephant. The man is the logical part, but really, most of the “stuff” and most of the work is being done by the elephant. If you’re trying to talk to the logic with people, you’re missing most of the point. You have to talk to the elephant, the not-so-obvious reasons for their beliefs, opinions, and actions. We are all not really working logically most of the time. We have feelings that we try to put into logic so they make sense. So, when you talk to someone, try to figure out why they are having those feelings. Are they scared, proud, nostalgic, etc.? Then, work from there. I don’t mean this in a deragatory way about people, just factual; we are not using logic to guide us most of the time. You have to work with the how people are, not how you think they should be if you want to change their minds.
Let it go. If you have plenty of reason to love them, then you’ll love them.
My brother and I are complete opposites on the political spectrum. We’ve had a few conversations about gun control, SCOTUS noms, immigration reform, but not many. There’s just a tacit agreement that we are not able to change each other’s mind, so we don’t bring it up.
Our family has a card game that we love to play, and when we team up as partners we’re unstoppable. We focus on that. He had developed a taste for different wines, so we focus on that. His girlfriend just became a grandmother, so we talk about that.
I don’t love him any less, even if he thinks Mexico paid for the beautiful wall through tariffs. He’s my big brother, and there are plenty of reasons to love him.
If they ask your opinion, don’t hold back. And if you’re worried they’re going to make a catastrophic mistake like “lose all your money and wind up homeless” or “get your legs broken by goons” then speak up. But generally you have to let people make their own mistakes and hopefully learn from them. You can’t save people from themselves.
Don’t try to teach a pig to sing. It annoys the pig and frustrates yourself. (My grandmother on many occasions said this to me and I’d been happier if I understood this earlier in life.)
Looking at something objectively is more rare than folks believe. Most folks dismiss/discount things that counter their feelings while gathering things that affirm/bolster those feelings.
You just end up coming across as a know it all. Let them be big dummies, listen to them bitch about the obviously stupid mistake they made (and continue to make), and don’t try to help them fix it unless the ask you to.
My family does the same shit. I’m a total black sheep. It’s alright. I just love them and let them be silly, and though it might be shitty, I get a bit of amusement from their antics.
What mistaken beliefs do they have? How are you sure you’re right? Are you just repeating stuff you heard from authoritative voices, and trying to act as an authoritative voices in turn? Sorry if that’s rude, but I did that all the time when I was younger.
Convincing other people that their ideas are incorrect is one of the hardest things in the world. That is pretty much what causes conflict all through the world and all throughout history. So don’t be too hard on yourself for not being able to do it. It requires a special skill to be able to do it, and even then its not an easy process.
But I’ve found it is especially hard with family members. You have a pattern of behaviour with them that is difficult to change. The pattern also includes how they respond and engage with you. If they aren’t used to having discussions and conversations with you, then they will revert to just making snide come-backs or just telling you to shutup or whatever it is.
I’d say you are on a path though. Maybe you are trying to change this dynamic with your family. You can keep trying and over time you might see what works and what doesn’t, and then you might find an effective way of communicating with them. But don’t forget there are sometimes just limits to this thing – at which point you just have to accept the way things are.
There are very few ideas that are “objectively” wrong.
I see a lot of people lately slapping the word “objectively” on their opinions.
>They seem to belief things, not because they reached a logical conclusion, but because it “feels right” to them.
That is most of the human race, including you, including me, with most of our beliefs.
People aren’t computers.
People are animals driven by instinct and emotion ( who don’t necessarily have the self awareness to see that ) who can be rational decision makers for limited periods of time. On some issues. When emotion, psychological factors do not prevent them from that process.
> I usually try to correct when they’re wrong, because it is what I would want from someone else. To correct someone who is wrong is to help them.
>But they don’t seem to really receive what I’m saying. I wonder if I just don’t explain it well.
Try to remember the last time someone corrected you about how you said or wrote something.
Did it feel good?
Probably not.
It is even worse when someone tries to correct somebody else about a belief. It gets even more worse if it is unsolicited. It gets even more worse if it comes from a family member who people have a history with. Those psychological factors.
>I think the most frustrating part is that I feel like I am responsible to correct their incorrect beliefs
You aren’t.
> Not only because it is what I’d want from them if circumstances were reversed,
Many people do not want the same things you want.
Worse yet, sometimes people don’t really want what they say they want.
>If they did that to me I would feel like they kept something from me when they should have my back
Another possibility is that they have learned from life that it is often hard, and *unwelcome* to try to correct people so they put that aside to enjoy their company while keeping their mental resources free for things other than worrying about what other people think.
In situations like you describe my personal policy is to make my *best* case ( facts, good sources, logic ) **once**. After that, I tell myself they are adults, it is up to them to listen or not, I took my best shot, it is not my problem, and it is time to move on.
First off, you can’t be “average” intelligent with what you just wrote. You grammar and spelling is spot on. Your sentence structure is spot on. You correctly used quotations as well.
Don’t make excuses for your family. Don’t attempt to save them from situations they put themselves in. Every time you save them, they will rely on you more, and won’t learn to save themselves. Plain and simple…you are enabling them.
One of the skills I’ve picked up as an old man is detecting when someone you’re talking to is firmly anchored to their ignorance and completely unwilling to consider an alternate view. I tend to leave them alone, especially if they are over the age of say, 25. It’s just an exercise in frustration at that point.
I always say this to myself when I disagree with someone’s decisions:
“Let them be adults.”
Adults are fully capable of understanding the consequences of their decisions. If they still choose to make bad ones, let them. Give them the personal agency that they are entitled to.
I mean first thing you’ve got to ask is why you’re so sure you’re right. “It’s obvious” is exactly the same thing as “it feels right.”
More importantly it’s not really any of your business to be the arbiter of truth in someone else’s life.
Work towards perfection yourself. That takes the humility to realize you’re never going to get anywhere close. Once you’ve achieved it you can start working on other people.
You do not provide specific examples. How then can I avoid thinking to myself: “OP thing;s they are always right.” You need to provide an example.
One of the best pieces of advice I’ve heard on this topic is that you can’t reason someone out of a belief that they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place.
So, for example, if a mentally-competent adult says they sincerely believe the world is flat, there is virtually nothing you can do. If they don’t accept the existing overwhelming evidence then that means they are not ‘seeking the truth’ but are instead validating a belief or feeling.
My family and I like to say that we deal in reality, and if someone can present facts or hypotheses that run counter to something I think I already know, I call that a win, because now I feel my understanding of reality is improved.
MANY people want a fixed conception of reality, and anything that challenges that is either wrong or is a personal attack. I’ve never understood that mentality, but I’ve seen it enough that I’ve had to accept it.
If you think you don’t operate within the limits of your own bias, you don’t know yourself as well as you think you do.
Maybe you think around a couple of more corners than the people around you, and, hey, good for you, maybe we would enjoy talking to each other and we would compliment each other for doing so. But that’s no reason to be obnoxious about them being “objectively wrong”. We individuals rarely have a good grasp on the objective reality out there, and others having even a worse grasp is no reason to get arrogant. On the contrary, every single time it should give you a pause considering all the things you might not get correctly, and become a bit more humble.
Then, in time, people may be willing to listen to your reasoning.
My sister called me on Sunday, her son was struggling with some simple 9th grade math assignment (solving systems of equations by graphing the lines) and since I remember this OK I was able to help him over the phone while lazing on my couch. The next day they call me, he got an 82 on the math test. So…this was a test he was supposed to do himself, and he only got an 82 after he was helped. He was taking a test where he couldn’t immediately recognize a line’s equation in slope intercept form? And he only got an 82?? So I point out that I thought the grade was too low and he should take a picture of the test and send it to me so we could work out what he did poorly.
Look, this kid is perfectly bright enough to do all of HS math and, with work, do college math. All he really has to do is sit his ass down and pay attention while the teacher explains precisely how to do the problems he will see on the test. And, before anyone gets on me about how an 82 is OK, not in this class it isn’t, he is on the college track and he has to take and pass a state exam to move on to the next class. So you can kiss my butt accepting mediocrity of effort.
Here is the thing, the reason he isn’t focusing on his schoolwork is because his idiot parents think he will be the next Wayne Gretsky and he spends all of his time playing hockey. He won’t be the next Wayne, but he can be a very good engineer or lawyer or programmer, or whatever he sits down and bothers to learn with time and effort. I can’t convince me sister not to be an idiot, she is too well practiced at it. I can, maybe, be enough influence on the boy that he does well enough in school to have some options in life.
I learned to move on and ignore it.
My mom is not dumb. She’s pretty smart. She decided she doesn’t want to get the vaccine. When she told me I just said: “If you’re asking for my opinion, it’s that you should get the vaccine. It’s been proven safe and effective. But it’s your decision. It’s up to you.”
I immediately moved on. It’s not my job to change the opinions of others.
>I find myself slowly getting frustrated by this. I usually try to correct when they’re wrong, because it is what I would want from someone else. To correct someone who is wrong is to help them.
One of the most important and hardest lessons I learned as a young adult was to “let people continue to be ‘wrong'”. This doesn’t mean you never fight for your ideals, but when you see something you perceive as “wrong”, first really challenge yourself to see if you yourself are holding the wrong opinion/state. If it passes your own scrutiny decide if this is really a battle worth fighting.
Example:
“I believe anyone that eats mint chocolate chip ice cream is an stuck up”.
* What would be the consequences to them acting on this? – They’ll likely insult some peopled needlessly, but it doesn’t affect you or society. Don’t fight this.
* What are the consequences to you? If you eat mint chocolate chip ice cream are YOU really going to be offended? Why? Its a useless subjective determination on their part. What do you care what they think? You don’t. Don’t fight this.
* What are the consequences to society? Society will ignore this ranting for the uselessness that it is. Don’t fight this.
Contrast that if the opinion stated was:
“I believe anyone that drives drunk should not be convicted of a crime”.
Clearly, thats one to fight on ever level.
I recommend you find and watch *The Brainwashing of My Dad*. I think it would be relevant and interesting. And without creating a spoiler for you, let’s just say you should watch through to the very end.
[And guys, keep in mind OP’s dad won’t get the covid-19 vaccine. I bet we’d have put somewhat different responses had he mentioned that in the OP.]
Look into Street Epistemology.
It’s a conversational technique that does wonders for having productive conversations about controversial topics. A good starting point is to go onto youtube and watch some videos from Anthony Magnabosco using the technique to talk with strangers. He does a phenomenal job and I learned it just by watching him and mimicking his approach.
I would look at it like this:
1. Not everybody wants to be corrected. If you are in a conversation with them, it’s completely understandable for you to say something like, “this is how I see it”, “in my experience, this is how it works”, etc. If they don’t get it, then they don’t get it. Sometimes you need to plant a seed and just let it grow and maybe eventually they will catch on. Sometimes, it takes hearing something multiple time before it sinks in. As individuals (and probably as adults), it’s their responsibility to get it right. It’s not your responsibility or burden to bear UNLESS it affects (and somehow hurts you) directly and need them to change in order to maintain a relationship with them.
2. You are different in that you want to be corrected and informed such that you can grow to be a better person. Congratulations! Good for you! As you grow to be a better person and a more successful and upstanding citizen, maybe they will start looking up to you and asking for your advice. Lead by example and let them come to you.
3. Just because you disagree with them, doesn’t mean they are wrong. It could very well be that you are the one who is in fact wrong. Sometimes, it takes years of experience before something happens and it occurs to you that they were the ones who were right to begin with. So, if you don’t feel you get through to them trying to explain stuff, maybe just let it go and let it take care of itself.
All these things are what I’ve learned over the years. I’ve often felt exactly what you are describing. I’m literally in a position where I am having to tell multiple members of my family that it’s not ok to act the way they do. You would think that for instance, at 70 years old, they would know that 2 year old spoiled brat behavior gets you on the outside looking in and nobody wants you around. This should be obvious. The problem is they didn’t want to change until they realized they have nothing and nobody and were forced to start asking why.
Well, I know what you’re talking about. Inteligence has nothing to do with this.
I have tried to reason with people, my brother even figured out a technique of finding a common belief both agree on, and to start reason from there. He spent hours debating with religous people (we are atheists). They would agree with his reasoning and in the end still reject his conclusion. Why? Because.
I also get more and more the feeling, some beliefs are there, because a mix of 2 things: 1. they want to be in line with the rest of their peers – they are not the rebel, because rebels get expelled. 2. it gives them a nice story, where they are not the bad person in a bad situation (e.g., climate change is really bad, but I really need my SUV, it’s justified)
If my theory (yes, it’s just a theory) is correct, then it’s really really hard to change. Cause you have to think about an alternative story, which the group can accept, and you have to convince more that one within a year or so.
Of course, there are topics that are far less interwined with our emotions, probably there you have better chances.
Feel free to share opinions on this theory.
You can’t teach someone that doesn’t to be taught. Trying to force your own understanding or belief on people who aren’t receptive to it is not only futile but often makes you an asshole. Quit trying to control others and learn to let go. Accept people as they are and offer advice, wisdom, and understanding when it’s asked for.
I can empathize with you. Good luck.
Yeah, I would say *most* people dislike being corrected, especially around others. Stop doing that. Let them be wrong.
Consider how it is directly impacting you negatively. Set appropriate boundaries to facilitate safety and communication. Recognize the rest as none of your business unless solicited.
Biggest lesson I’ve learned is its okay to let people be wrong …
if you push back, make it light hearted tongue-in-cheek questioning to humorously point out logical fallacies for your fun and entertainment only, or to make sure it doesn’t go unchallenged if there are others that could be convinced they are correct (young children for example etc), but in the end, its usually not worth it, because
a. they won’t change their minds
b. they’ll dislike you for making them feel disagreeable.
And very occasionally, you’ll eventually find out … you weren’t right either 😉
You have to learn to love them the way they are. As soon as you stop trying to change or educate them, the whole relationship gets better.
Without a specific example it is difficult to understand where the breakdown is happening
You’ve described your perspective in a general sense but omitted all other details.
Additionally, in my experience, people who describe themselves as “smart” generally are not.
I’m not saying that you are not, I’m just detailing the summation of people I’ve met.
I understand what you are saying!!
The last few years I’ve had to cut people out of my life. I have a heart condition so Covid is a really scary fact for me. Well I have family say that it only weeds out the weak and that they will be fine through it so it doesn’t matter. I will say hearing that destroys me inside.
At the start of this I would show them all the facts but as time has gone on I just say here is the facts about how it will effect me if they still go off I block them refuse to be around them.
It is not your job to fix anyone’s “incorrect beliefs”. It is also not anyone’s job to fix yours.
Objectively wrong about what? Some things just aren’t all that important and aren’t worth trying to “correct” anyone on them.
You just let them be wrong.
> But they don’t seem to really receive what I’m saying. I wonder if I just don’t explain it well.
Maybe. You say in your comments that “my dad said he thinks it’s safer to get COVID than the vaccine”. That doesn’t need to be a discussion of opinion or an argument at all. You can just list facts.
How many people have died of Vaccine complications after being vaccinated? (stolen from cdc.gov: from December 14, 2020, through January 18, 2022. During this time, VAERS received 11,468 reports of death (0.0022%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. )
How many people have died of Covid complications after catching it and being unvaccinated? (869,000)
That’s all that is needed. 11K deaths vs 869K deaths. It’s like you are going to be shot at 100 times, and 1 time it’s the vaccine bullet and 89 of those 100 bullets are Covid bullets. People can make up their own minds with that information.
> If they did that to me I would feel like they kept something from me when they should have my back.
Nah. You can’t MAKE someone make good like choices. They have free will and autonomy and that includes the ability to make self-harming decisions. All you can do is make good decisions yourself and possible role model critical thinking.
Allow them to have their own opinions. Everyone thinks they’re right, your view holds much more weight in your own mind than it does in anyone elses. I’m sure you think you’re right, I’m also sure they do to. Most people allow themselves to think they’re much smarter than they actually are, the dunning-kruger effect is real.
I get the feeling this is probably about covid, the misinformation on both “sides” is absolutely is ridiculous, I could find 10’s of peer reviewed studies to back up most realistic arguments on either side of the debate yet the vast majority of people fall heavily on one side or the other and label any contradicting information BS. Not much is actually objectively wrong (unless you’re getting into crazy microchip or 5g shit), there are still a lot of unknowns.
My advice? Don’t force your opinions on others.
You reduce the sphere of interaction between you and them. I no longer talk politics with most of my family. We say “How have you been? Oh yeah, a new burger joint? Cant wait to go with you. Glad she’s doing well. Oh, that sounds like it was fun.” and never “Covid… President… Computer thing… Science thing…”
I’ve learned to stop trying to change their mind and instead just provide them with information and let them make their own decisions.
I’ve learned more passive ways of correcting them, like asking questions or saying “I thought…” or “the way I understand it is…”(even when you KNOW you’re right) it sounds less like a disagreement which will make them defensive and never listen, and more like a conversation
alternatively or additionally, use some [psychological trickery](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bAEuX2w2Ow)
time stamp for anti-vaxxer argument: https://youtu.be/8bAEuX2w2Ow?t=798
You ever watch Seinfeld? He just observes, doesn’t get caught up in their shit