I ask this question after various conversations with an American in-law (who has never been to Europe) where it became clear that she believes most European countries are essentially homogenous ethno-states, where British people exclusively eat British food, French only eat French food, and people are basically culturally and racially homogenous.
But this isn’t really the case anymore (if it ever really was), there is a large amount of migration to Europe comparable to or greater than migration to the US.
If you take a look at foreign born population:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population
Foreign born population of the US is 15.4%.
There are a number of Old World countries with a higher rate than that, or comparable. In descending order:
Switzerland 29.9%
Sweden 20%
Austria 19.9%
Malta 19.3%
Belgium 17.2%
Ireland 17.1%
Norway 16.1%
Cyprus 16%
Germany 15.7%
Iceland 15.5%
Spain 15.2%
Estonia 14.4%
France 14.1%
Netherlands 13.3%
Denmark 12.5%
These aren’t just people from other European countries either. Taking the UK for example, there are the top nationalities of foreign born population:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom
1- India 2-Poland 3-Pakistan 4-Ireland 5-Germany 6- Bangladesh 7- South Africa 8-Nigeria 9- USA 10-China
And for France it is places like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and for Germany it is places like Turkey and Syria.
True, America has a longer history of migration so remains more ethnically mixed. But I’d say that is changing rapidly too – France doesn’t record racial statistics but the ethnic mix there today is probably as diverse as in the US. In the UK the breakdown is like so:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/bulletins/ethnicgroupenglandandwales/census2021#detailed-ethnic-group-classification
81% white including 74% white British
9.3% Asian
4% Black
3% Mixed
2% Other ethnic group
Compare to US:
60% white
19% Latino (nb this is classed as either white or other in UK statistics)
12.6% Black
6% Asian
2.3% Mixed
Obviously US remains more mixed and the white population is of more diverse origin than the 74% white British, but I think its fair to say the difference is smaller than people believe and narrowing quite quickly.
Just wondering how you guys feel about this trend. Does it surprise you? Do you think it is a good or bad thing? For people who strongly identify as Irish-American for instance, would you view someone black or ethnically South Asian or East Asian as Irish? And do you feel like it changes your self-image as an immigration nation?
18 comments
[removed]
> Just wondering how you guys feel about this trend
I don’t feel one way or another about it; it has nothing to do with me.
> Does it surprise you?
Nope.
> Do you think it is a good or bad thing?
It’s not inherently good nor bad.
Doesn’t surprise me.
I don’t see it as inherently good or bad.
It just is what it is and more diversity in any given country seems kind of inevitable considering how mobile populations are becoming. Worldwide transportation is becoming cheaper and a lot of places are becoming wealthier.
I have no strong feelings about this one or another.
However, I would contend with the notion that the European countries are becoming US-style melting pots. I don’t think their cultures, as it stands, are able to integrate immigrants anywhere near the same effectiveness that American culture is currently able to.
I have no real thoughts on it, may as well have thoughts on the tide.
I don’t care. I think a lot of problems would go away if people stopped obsessing over being a hegemonic majority. Culture is social, not genetic.
>Just wondering how you guys feel about this trend.
No particular way. I’m not your in-law, I had no real preconception about it.
> Does it surprise you?
No. I know that, for instance, there are countries with nativist factions that make *our* nativists look subtle. Logically, if everyplace was a straight-up ethnostate, that wouldn’t happen.
> Do you think it is a good or bad thing?
People live their lives, and sometimes that involves moving. Those people have kids, they didn’t “move” anywhere, that’s where they came onto this Earth, they’re home. That’s just life. Applying “good” or “bad” to it seems inappropriate somehow.
>For people who strongly identify as Irish-American for instance, would you view someone black or ethnically South Asian or East Asian as Irish?
Sure. Even the guys in Boston who are really into “being Irish” don’t invest in it that particular way (one slang term- at least when I was there- for actual *Irish*’ people was “FBI”- Foreign Born Irish. As opposed to “Irish” , which could mean, like, from points as far apart as Dorchester or Southie.)
We’re mostly diasporic, here, and so understand diasporas as a concept.
I can give examples of people with ethnic backgrounds from one place but nationality in another, and how I know they’re “really” citizens of the place they’re plainly from, but that kind of feels… tacky?
>And do you feel like it changes your self-image as an immigration nation?
I’m interested to hear how or why it would?
I don’t think foreign-born is the right comparison; it doesn’t necessarily imply globe-spanning diversity. For example, the majority of foreign-born people in Switzerland, Ireland, Belgium, and Austria are Europeans, which is exactly what one would expect if you’re a wealthy country handling both EU free movement & refugees from the Yugoslav wars. It’s not exactly the same thing as people having ethnic origins from all over the world, that’s more akin to the muddling of white ethnic boundaries that happened here 100 years ago. Here, that process is thoroughly complete; no ethnic group has more than 14% of the population, and ~40% are hispanic and/or non-white.
It is interesting, though, to see some European countries grapple with ~10% non-white populations for the first time, and see which ones are more accepting of that fact vs. others.
It was something of an inevitability with immigrant labor replacing aging populations in the work force.
I will say that Portuguese, French, British, Dutch, and Spanish defenders of colonialism have very little room to complain about the issue without reverting to hypocrisy.
The suicide of the west is something to watch.
Did anyone read all that?
More diversity is inevitable. Clinging on to historical notions of self-image based on skin color or ethnicity is a bit silly to me when you tie it to country.
Does it really matter if, a hundred years down the line, the average skin color of a European person is several shades darker and has the features of a south asian person?
“Just wondering how you guys feel about this trend. ”
-Pretty nuetral to positive, I hope that the assimilation goes well for both parties.
” Does it surprise you?
-No not at all.
“Do you think it is a good or bad thing?”
-I think it will in the long run be a good thing where europeans gain a greater appreciation of other cultures and uses these experiences to reject hyper-nationalism and racsism. it might not be overnight but I think in the future it will pan out for the best.
“or people who strongly identify as Irish-American for instance, would you view someone black or ethnically South Asian or East Asian as Irish?” – Hello Irish-American answering on this one and my answer is yes absolutely 100%. Culture is not transmitted by race but is instead a mindset and social background. There are in fact Black and Asian people who are arguably more Irish than I am because they are currently living there in Ireland getting the firsthand experience while I am just ethnically Irish but have limited first-hand experience in Ireland and very American tendencies. Idk man let me put your question in a different way; I’m not a native american but I still very much identify with being an American even though I’m only like a generation removed from the OG immigrant stock I am fully americanized. To be an American is to embrace a cultural mindset and value system; you can be of any race, religion, country of origin, whatever as long as we can still at the end of the day agree on the cultural mindset and values.
“And do you feel like it changes your self-image as an immigration nation?”
-Not at all, I’m glad the rest of the world is getting the memo that immigrants benefit society
I feel like Americans in general tend to heavily overrate how multicultural their country is.
Or I guess more so underrate other countries. The US is roughly average in this regard.
Indifference as I don’t live there.
> Does it surprise you?
Why would it surprise me? The internet and international travel make mobility easier now than at any point in human history.
> Do you think it is a good or bad thing?
People having the opportunity to go places to change their lives for the better, regardless of the reason, seems pretty good to me.
> For people who strongly identify as Irish-American for instance, would you view someone black or ethnically South Asian or East Asian as Irish?
I’d identify them however they asked to be identified.
> And do you feel like it changes your self-image as an immigration nation?
Not really, no. Perhaps it makes us more influential as other former ethnic states struggle to change.
It’s still different. Those countries might not be monoethnic, but they were still founded and have the history of largely monoethnic/monocultural states, even if you make that a fuzzy interpretation of monoethnic. Say Slavs instead of being more specific.
The U.S. is different. It was voted into existence by agreement. It was founded on principles, not ethnicity. The trajectory has been different and it’s still different.
I doubt it’s narrowing quite quickly.
I’ve been aware of this trend for a while, and I don’t think it threatens America’s image as an immigrant nation. If other countries want to be more multi-ethnic like America, it seems like a win for America’s principles abroad.
I don’t have any direct experience, but I’ve read about how parts of Europe often struggle to integrate immigrants, and it lacks the political, social, and cultural institutions the US has spent the past 200+ years building to integrate immigrants. This lack of cultural integration in parts of Europe may cause some rifts, and it seems like Brexit and the increase in support for some of the more extreme right-wing parties in Europe is partly due to the lack of this integration.
If I met a South Asian person who identified as Irish, I wouldn’t question it. It’s up to the individual person how they choose to culturally identify, but I’d maybe be curious about this person’s life experience as it’s unique to me.