People in the military: how do you know that you fight for a good cause? would you know if you were a Russian solider right now, or a Nazi soldier 80 years ago?

48 comments

  2. Ex-military (British)

    The shit I see my government pull and the general state of my country makes me think why the fuck should I fight for people who couldn’t care less if I died. The after care for veterans in the UK is fucking shocking and my joke of a government makes it less appealing to fight the good cause.

  3. There is no good or wrong. There is only different insight of perspective. For us (western world) fighting a war in the middle east seems for us like the good cause. But for just innocent people over there, we might be what Putin is for Ukrain.

    It is the exact same reason violence doesn’t solve anything, and I would ignore the call to war, even if that means I am a deserteur. I refuse to fight a war that isn’t mine. I refuse harming/killing others, just because my country (the Netherlands) tells me to. Guess what, my government tells me all kinda lies, going to war would be one of them.

  4. Because those countries rely on insane propaganda machines to keep everyone thinking they’re the good guys. Unless you think the US is somehow capable of doing that while still allowing free speech it seems like a non issue.

  5. Well, I have basically no restriction on what information I can consume. That’s how I know.

  6. One element you can use to justify it is to boil it down to a lower level of fight.

    Was the US justified in fighting the war in Afghanistan? Difficult to say and morally hazy.

    However, in my company’s small part of the war, we were clearing IEDs from roads travelled by farmers. My small part of the war was for a good cause.

  9. Not everyone joins for the same reasons. Everyone has their own; some are very simple, others very personal. I’m just some civilian though.

  10. Fight for a good cause? Dude, I joined the Marine Corps to get my fucking head blown off in Kuwait or Somalia. Life at home was that fucked up. Turns out, being in was the most positive thing for my life.

    As for fighting for a cause or whatever, most don’t really do that. We “fight” so we can get our weekend off to fuck our girlfriend, or drink, or do stupid Marine shit on the weekends. No really, nearly all the guys I was in with could give two fucks about fighting for any cause. We all did our thing so we could have weekends off.

  11. The thing about the military is what they tell you you’re fighting for and what they are sending you to die for are two different things.

    Here are some examples.

    U.S. civil war. Only 6% of southerners were slave owners and they were the wealthy ones. So how do you get the 94% of the poor to fight for something that doesn’t effecrmt them? You warn them of tge dangers of federal overreach.

    So the 94% actually were fighting against federal tyranny. That’s what they were willing to die for. Their leaders on the othe hand. . . Not so much.

    The German soldiers of WW2 were fighting to reclaim the land that had been taken from then during the treaty of versillas. They were fighting to liberate former german citizens who’d been forced into different nations. Their leaders? Not so much.

    It all comes down to propaganda.

    The fact that you instinctively compare russia of today to germany of the 1930s just demostrates what side of the propaganda wall you are on.

  12. You can never be entirely sure. One just has to keep an eye on what’s going on in the world from day to day and use one’s best judgement.

  13. For me, it’s less about the cause, as much as who the foe is. For instance, I’ve been alive for a while, so I remember Islamic terrorism since the Iranian hostage crisis. So when 9/11 happened, I knew who the bad guys were. My problem now is, I’m wondering why? I mean, I’ve had friends who were killed and hurt in Afghanistan, and we literally ran away in the night. We left Iraq to fight ISIS alone.

  15. People generally don’t fight for causes they fight to protect their mates.

    Vast majority of Germans didn’t fight because they wanted to be able to do evil shit, you fought to protect the guy in the next foxhole.

  16. Unless you are purposely killing civilians, it may be impossible to know if you are on the wrong side of history or not.

  17. You sound like some european teenager. Or canadian?

    Anyways

    Most people do not join the military to fight, and combat MOS are tiny number of total troops.

    Oftentimes its kids who don’t have the money or test scores to get into college and their home town job market isn’t great. The military offers a guaranteed wage, benefits and retirement pension.

    A relative of mine is a helicopter mechanic. There is no way he would’ve been able to get into a civilian aviation school yet in the military he had that option. And he’s doing quite well and has advanced in rank etc.

  18. We don’t choose the cause any more than we choose the country we were born at, so what choice do we have if one wants to join? I mean, there’s PMC nowadays but even so, not so widespread and with a higher pre-entry standard.

  19. There’s an old saying that goes something like “if you think you’re the hero of your story, you’re a villain in somebody elses”.

    Im a US Marine. I was in Iraq. I THOUGHT I was the good guy, getting rid of a bad guy. Then I became the bad guy.

  20. I’d say the big difference here is that the Russians fighting now are conscripts and there’s likely a lot of “fight or go to prison” and the Nazi’s it was “fight or go to a labour camp and we kill your whole family”. So the cause for those people isn’t very consequential.

  21. I was in the Coast Guard. People are happy to see us most of the time, unless they’re breaking the law. I was a C-130 avionics tech and a navigator. I have 4000 flight hours. The experience I had while in has gotten me where I am now. Not one regret in the 16 years I was in.

  22. You don’t. That’s not a decision you get to make. You train to fight and follow orders of your superior officers. You fight for the guy to your left and right. You join because you want the discipline, the camaraderie and you want to serve.

  23. The only good cause is if you are defending your home or if you know you are deployed to protect civilians from being killed, or to deliver food, water and medicine to war zones. Everything else is nothing more but warfare for profit. Old politicians sending young men to die in their wars for profit.

    There are no words to describe how much I despise politicians and their corporate masters, who dictate the policies, which tend to be devestating for the region in question.

    They can all go fuck themselves as far as I am concerned. I refused to follow orders, which were clearly given under the guidlines of such people in my own country because they wanted to start a civil war. They failed because the Army refused to obey the politicians in power at that time.

  24. The answer is no. You most likely would realize you are in fact the nazi and if you were too recognize that fact you most likely would sacrifice your life or the life of your family members.

  25. When I was in Iraq in 07 I knew it wasn’t a good cause. I despised Bush and his illegal invasion of Iraq. I was a troubled teenager and the Army seemed to be my only way out when I turned 18. I was lured into a life changing choice that brought me to hell on earth. It wasn’t about a cause out there it was about survival and trying to protect the man next to you. At the same time it changed me. My interpreter was an out of work nuclear engineer. I learned about the culture and met many interesting people. In 1 year I feel as if I had matured 10 years. I came back and lost friends by condemning friends who called the Iraqi people “donkey fuckers”. I witnessed many horrible things during my time as an invader but I definitely grew as a person.

  26. I don’t care about the cause, I joined because I was homeless. I’ve been in for 12 years and they’ve paid for both my bachelors and masters degrees. They also paid for my cardiac ablation. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

  27. Would I? Yeah I think so. I’ve neve been blinded by patriotism. But I think I was somewhat of an outlier, better read and educated than most of my contemporaries.

  28. > how do you know that you fight for a good cause

    You don’t. “Good cause” is arbitrary and ever-changing. A couple hundred years ago explorers enslaving ingenious cultures were heroes who brought new riches to their homeland. Now they are bloodshedding monsters who massacred the innocent.

  29. swiss military here, the only time i will actually fight is when there is a foreign threat inside my country. We don’t do this imperialism shit.

  30. I was in the US Army during the invasion of Iraq. We went into Iraq for 3 primary reasons and once I realized they were bullshit I knew I was finishing the three year stint I signed up for and getting out. I was in a medical unit in Baghdad and did see a lot of good that was done for the people of Iraq, but figuring out the lie in why/how we got there made me realize that we were all just pawns for the politicians/big business. I would never put my life on the line for big oil, but I would for my country. Luckily, I chose an MOS (profession) in the military that kept me from doing anything I’d regret or even in a position to consider something regrettable. Being in a unit and then being deployed makes the moral question of doing “right and wrong” much more difficult as it quickly escalates to- am I going to let one of my fellow soldiers/friends die. If anyone has ever been out drinking with a friend that you constantly have to backup in a bar fight then you know what I mean. I’ve got into fights that I knew we’d lose, but I wasn’t going to let my friend get jumped. That’s kind of how war is, but obviously on a whole another level. I wrote this quickly after a couple glasses of whiskey so hopefully it makes sense.

  31. In the end we are fighting to keep the people around us alive. I know that sounds stupid but it is what it is. War is terrible and there haven’t been many wars fought in recent history that were for good causes. It’s important to note that wars are usually fought over some political/cultural difference that couldn’t be settled diplomatically. Why should hordes of people have to fight and die because Politician A and Politician B couldn’t see eye to eye? So stupid. War is a shameful thing. Imagine how quickly the disputes over our differences would vanish if we were facing a threat from outside our world.

  32. I served (by conscription) in the South African military, at a time when SA was at war with neighbouring countries and with its own citizens. There was a lot of propaganda and misinformation, and many thought they were fighting communism and terrorism. It retrospect, I’m very glad I never had to go into combat.

  33. Many of us serving due to the ‘War on Terror’ had a pretty good understanding that it was a political shit show not driven at all in fulfilling the stated objective. It was about serving the interests of a few war mongering shit heads.

    Now for me personally, the understanding Australian soldiers have is we are politically neutral in our service and follow directives from the government of the day. There are such things as unlawful orders of course, but that usually manifests at a tactical level rather than operational.

    Another thing Australian military really focuses on is the idea of mateship. No matter what, you ultimate objective is to look after those serving alongside you, your mates, so you all get home safe. Doesn’t matter if the reason for what you’re doing is shit, you don’t let your mates down. This kind of redirects the reason for you trying to complete your objective to the best of your ability. So no-one dies and you all go home.

  34. The only scale I can go off of are the people I met while in Iraq that said they preferred us to ISIS

  35. I’ve thought about this extensively, especially as I’m finishing school and considering going back to get my commission.

    The biggest thing would be how well informed the troop is to what’s going on in the outside world, compared to what they’re evening told. Easy to imagine a private being told to dress in full MOPP gear and kill any living thing not wearing a uniform because they’re ‘infected’. But that’s Hollywood.

    It comes down to the person being able to think critically in the moment, find outside information and have the moral courage to defy orders- even if their best friends and superiors are following them. That’s where leaderships comes in. In western militaries (I’m assuming all of NATO but can only speak for the US). NCO’s and officers have an obligation to review their orders and deny them if they are unlawful or unconstitutional. It gets very muddy and grey from there, but the US war machine actually has a function built in for this.

    Prime example that’s also a hot button topic. Troops are enlisted and swear to protect and defend the constitution. Nothing else. So if a platoon of soldiers are told to go into town and arrest anyone with a firearm, they have the legal authority to disobey the orders because that goes against the constitution.

    (Don’t comment with gun debate shit. This is just an example and the same goes for arresting journalists, taking over civilian homes etc)

  36. >how do you know that you fight for a good cause?

    Most people don’t care about that. Some fool themselves into thinking they’re the good guys.

  37. Don’t forget American/British soldiers right now and for the last 40-50 years or so and judging by Reddit they don’t know at all how evil they are simple

  38. you dont, you know you are a pawn used for the elite.ive been to Afghanistan when i was younger and after the fact you find out it was all bullshit we where there.

    i dont believe much good is coming from government, they’re the main killer of people

  39. I think only Russian soldiers can really answer the Russian part of the question. Any army feeds you a ton of bullshit to fight their wars. Only the Russian soldiers know what they have been told, and the reality they live. I know some civillian Russians who tell a very different story to what we hear on the mainstream media. And I’m not talking about cheap talk, I’m talking about detailed and well constructed speech. Whether their right, or we are, is something we will truly never know, because again, the media shoves shit into your eyes on the daily. So, in essence, only the soldier who is in the fight can judge if it is for a good cause, and only they can say what they have been told.

  40. I consider myself defending the country. More on the defensive against terrorists. Foreign and Domestic. I think that is where we are as a nation with our military instead of offensive fighting. 14+ years in U.S. Air Force.

  42. I was in the US Army 2014-2019. I never deployed but partook in a lot of NATO exercises in Eastern Europe as a show of force against Russia, and the civilians were always happy to see us when we rolled through, especially the Polish. So that made me feel good. However I never doubted that my government always have their games to play and the causes are often more for world power and not just compassion.

    I also looked at it this way: whether we like it or not, a nation needs a military force and if I wasn’t doing it, someone else would. It is what it is.

  43. Some just like being a soldier. Some hate a foreign nation. Some think they’re supreme. Some just kinda roll with it.

    Some see it as duty and something that just happens. Some see it as a job obstacle.

    Once you’re in, it is very hard to back down.
    Personally, I’d rather kill myself than harm truly innocent people directly. You can’t make it so that your nation is righteous, but you can try to be individually good.

  44. I was in the military a long time ago and there have been many books written about this topic but the universal truth has always been that in practice on the ground people always fight for their friends on a close personal level, and then abstracted decades and thousands of kilometers from the front lines they usually go for some karma farming rationalization about lofty values or at least profitable values.

    Its not a “military thing” in that with all human activities, once you operate past a certain level of wisdom, you know you’re not the king of the world and not likely to ascend to the throne anytime soon, but WRT eating meat or burning gas or watching propaganda or pulling guard duty or infantry-style clearing rooms, you CAN control your own personal activities to some extent and as such you’re doing the right thing if you’re being as little of a jerk as possible in the situation you are in.

    For example, if you’re prepping for a convoy escort and you have time to think about what you’re doing, you almost never think about karma farming decades later on Reddit about ultra-high-level geopolitics, you think about concentrating really hard to not accidentally shoot any civilians tonight, because not shooting civies is something that IS under my direct personal control. Or if under fire, you only care in the moment about making sure your friends make it.

    Really you have two questions. Why fight, and how do you know if a cause is good? I answered “why fight” but there are plenty of super sarcastic and depressing books along the lines of there are no good causes in wartime. Ever. Along with a side dish of the victor writes the history and writes the propaganda and coincidentally the victor was always “a good cause” in retrospect, except for the occasional subversive propaganda.

  45. The military I was in prohibited things like murdering civilians and prisoners (though atrocities did occur they were condemned and punished for such acts) so I feel like I would know if I was a nazi or a Russian attacking civilian targets.

  46. Thoughts of that nature certainly crossed my mind. All in all you have to balance it with the premise of reasonable expectations.

    The sad reality is, as a species we are seriously flawed. Nazis 80 years ago or contemporary Russians aren’t even a small sample size of armed forces and conflicts that have happened in the past 80 years. It’s a terrible reality that this is what human beings do. I’m not going to feel bad for being human and doing what humans do.

    That being so, I’m was only going to continue doing it if the people I march with and the ideals I march for remained acceptable by reasonable expectations. If the day (or night) ever came that I was given orders to go abduct a family in the middle of the night for the crime of being Jewish, or my rules of engagement included shooting unarmed civilians on site, I’d face a court martial. I want to believe I’d face it with no regret but being as how it never happened, it’s something I never have to find out about.

  48. That’s actually a really tough and nuanced question.
    Former Navy Corpsman here (combat medic), so my answer might be a bit different.

    As a combatant you hope that you’re on the right side of history. As a patriot, you refuse to believe anything less.

    That doesn’t mean that the government that you operate for is always in the right – it also doesn’t mean they’re inherently wrong – so finding the right cause is more deeply self-intimate than just black-and-white right and wrong.

    For some, the country called and they came running. For others it was the benefits after. Some were tired of burying friends they’d known from their military hometowns.

    There are a million reasons most of them good causes. But as we see now, and in the 40s, not all of those causes are for a *good* governmental cause.

    The road to hell *is* paved with good intentions after all.

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